Lots of fish came like that and Died - Is this sick fish?

AndyV, I think we are on the same page, but practicing husbandry a little differently. I try to limit time in QT to the shortest possible time required and was trying to help people understand the value I have found in observation of specimens when making handling decisions when presented with a situation. Unfortunately all of that is hard to convey in one post. I still stand by my methods and statements about pest introductions and we all should care for our fish with these points in mind. Every object that is wet which is transferred from other systems can contain parasites. I simply wanted people to enjoy their hobby and not stress when they see small signs of disease on a fish in a display. Sometimes moving an established specimen and dosing meds right away is the “kiss of death” rather than leaving the animal alone, feeding well, removing items/animals that fight or terrorize, not sticking your hands in the tank for a while, you could go on but I won’t. I know if you are very careful and meticulous you will be able to gently QT, as you suggested, but I still don’t see how you could provide adequate uninterrupted high water quality to specimens this way, using container transfer. I wonder what the loss rate is that you encounter with 100% 90 day QT with copper? Some fish just don’t seem to take very well to this approach. Would you do this to a Mandarin?

I was not looking for an argument, just looking to help a nice guy that helped me. There are many approaches that give us our own desired outcomes. I believe that is where our confusion started. Paulo was in a jam, with too many animals to QT at once. If you look back on this posting journey you will see that my comment had a lot to do with that problem specifically. Have a great weekend!
 
AndyV, I think we are on the same page, but practicing husbandry a little differently. I try to limit time in QT to the shortest possible time required and was trying to help people understand the value I have found in observation of specimens when making handling decisions when presented with a situation. Unfortunately all of that is hard to convey in one post. I still stand by my methods and statements about pest introductions and we all should care for our fish with these points in mind. Every object that is wet which is transferred from other systems can contain parasites. I simply wanted people to enjoy their hobby and not stress when they see small signs of disease on a fish in a display. Sometimes moving an established specimen and dosing meds right away is the “kiss of death” rather than leaving the animal alone, feeding well, removing items/animals that fight or terrorize, not sticking your hands in the tank for a while, you could go on but I won’t. I know if you are very careful and meticulous you will be able to gently QT, as you suggested, but I still don’t see how you could provide adequate uninterrupted high water quality to specimens this way, using container transfer. I wonder what the loss rate is that you encounter with 100% 90 day QT with copper? Some fish just don’t seem to take very well to this approach. Would you do this to a Mandarin?

I was not looking for an argument, just looking to help a nice guy that helped me. There are many approaches that give us our own desired outcomes. I believe that is where our confusion started. Paulo was in a jam, with too many animals to QT at once. If you look back on this posting journey you will see that my comment had a lot to do with that problem specifically. Have a great weekend!

I never did QT until ~7-8 years ago. At that point I had been reef keeping for ~5 years and had never had a problem. Then I had an ich outbreak.

I removed every fish from the display and put into QT. The DT was fallow for 90 days while the QT was treated with copper. I didn't lose anything, and I've never had a problem since.

The two fish that brought in the ich were a pair of Hooded Fairy Wrasses, which I had until they died about 6 months ago. That is a very long life for fairy wrasses in captivity. Some of the fish I owned prior to the wrasses (meaning >8 years ago) died over the last few years. About 3 years ago, I introduced about 12 new fish all at once.

They were all QT'd together in a 40 gallon breeder the same way I've described. I did not lose any fish during that QT. The only fish from that QT 3 years ago that is not still alive is a Randall's Goby that was extremely skittish from the moment of arrival and I couldn't get to eat much. He lived only a few weeks after QT.

So 6 months ago when the two aforementioned Fairy Wrasses died about a month apart, I bought a Golden Rhomboid and a Pintail Fairy Wrasse. The Pintail looked healthy with normal behavior and coloration. They were introduced into QT with no medications and filled with water from my display. The Pintail died before the next day and had a large white patch that had developed overnight indicative of some type of gram-negative bacterial infection.

That fish was not going to make it no matter what, and because it was QT'd, it didn't pass whatever it had to my DT, thankfully.

After ~6 weeks of QT, the Rhomboid smashed into the glass and never recovered from what appeared to be a spinal injury - it was swimming vertically, very listlessly, and stopped eating.

So I restarted QT again with the same two fish species. The only thing I did differently this time was to have the tank pre-dosed with antibiotics and copper upon arrival. Both fish made it through perfectly fine.

As far as Mandarins go, my understanding is they don't tolerate copper well. But I also thought there was evidence that they cannot get ich or even carry it. I don't know. Either way, everything I have read says they tolerate Chloroquine Phosphate very well, and many people prefer CP over copper (when appropriate) anyway because it treats not only ich and velvet, but also brooklynella and uronema.

Fish that cannot tolerate copper can usually tolerate CP, and vice versa, and some fish tolerate both.

The tricky part is getting pharmaceutical grade CP. You have to get it from a vet and they are often skittish about it. The guy that sells it on eBay cannot verify his source or ingredients, so I wouldn't touch that.

Hobbyists are obsessed with ich and velvet (rightfully so), but anecdotal reports of Uronema seem to be picking up dramatically, and not just on damsels and chromis. Ich and Velvet are nothing compared to Uronema. Uronema can wipe out your entire tank in a day. And I haven't read as much about it so I could be wrong, but my understanding is that unlike ich or velvet, uronema does not require a host. Fallow periods will not rid your DT of it. You have to break the entire tank down and sterilize everything.

Finally, I will close with this...even though I don't think it's hard at all to use copper for even a couple weeks - substantially reducing the chance of introducing parasites into your tank - I think most people would substantially reduce their risk just by having a QT with no medication and observing for 90 days.

That alone would have helped Paulo in this case. Have a great weekend.
 
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I think you are absolutely correct.
The information you are sharing here is excellent and spot on correct, from what I have read over the years.
QT is a necessary step if you want better security for your current inhabitants. I learned some techniques from this thread that I will be keeping in mind for my upcoming experience stocking a 180. I am planning on going slow with introductions for sure. No need to rush. Most of the fun for me is establishing a stable collection anyway.
 
I think you are absolutely correct.
The information you are sharing here is excellent and spot on correct, from what I have read over the years.
QT is a necessary step if you want better security for your current inhabitants. I learned some techniques from this thread that I will be keeping in mind for my upcoming experience stocking a 180. I am planning on going slow with introductions for sure. No need to rush. Most of the fun for me is establishing a stable collection anyway.

The fish disease and treatment forum at R2R is excellent. HotRocks, Ford4Family, and Humblefish seem to be the thought leaders in this area. They claim to have QT'd thousands of fish. Also, Evolved is one of the leading experts on Wrasses.
 
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