Lots of fish came like that and Died - Is this sick fish?

[jah-hoeva]

I believe most of the treatment need to be done on a a separate tank, can you remove the fish using a trap.

Paulo if that’s ich or velvet you have to get them out of your tank ASAP. Feeding well and all that is well and good but the parasites will not magically leave your system. As long as there are fish in your system they will have a food source.

 

[RogerO]

I believe most of the treatment need to be done on a a separate tank, can you remove the fish using a trap.

Paulo if that’s ich or velvet you have to get them out of your tank ASAP. Feeding well and all that is well and good but the parasites will not magically leave your system. As long as there are fish in your system they will have a food source.

I agree , once the fish is infected you need to act fast or it will wipe out your whole tank on a matter of Day’s .



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[thespsguy]

Paulo if that’s ich or velvet you have to get them out of your tank ASAP. Feeding well and all that is well and good but the parasites will not magically leave your system. As long as there are fish in your system they will have a food source.

Thanks man. I will remove all

 

[this is me]

Did you just put fish that arrived sick in your display?

 

[tommy6905]

Did you just put fish that arrived sick in your display?

I think your onto something

 

[gobyvin]

I hope you can get it under control. Good luck. Whatever you do, take all the steps you can to lower their stress levels. If you have a dominant or more than one dominant fish, those guys should get removed and QT’ed separately if you think they really need the move. Sometimes taking the guy that stresses all the others out of the equation helps the other fish heal on their own too. Most parasites are always in our systems, sometimes they become more abundant with additions of new fish. QT can work but is very hard to do if you have lots of specimens and not that much space. If you think water quality will not be supported in your ability to setup multiple QT’s then you might want to take my advice, I approach these problems as simply as I can to keep moving fish and stressing them out to a minimum.

 

[Andy V]

Most parasites are always in our systems

What exactly do you mean by this?

 

[gobyvin]

I only mean that Ich and Velvet even can always be in dormant stages of their life cycle in an apparently disease free tank. Read up on this in the aquarium literature, it is a well supported view and has been tested by some. I work in marine systems (the wild) and find it hard to believe that any fish tank started with live collected rock or even little bits of it does not have some common aquarium pests hitching a ride on it.

 

[jah-hoeva]

Any updates Paulo?

 

[Andy V]

I only mean that Ich and Velvet even can always be in dormant stages of their life cycle in an apparently disease free tank. Read up on this in the aquarium literature, it is a well supported view and has been tested by some. I work in marine systems (the wild) and find it hard to believe that any fish tank started with live collected rock or even little bits of it does not have some common aquarium pests hitching a ride on it.

Can you point me to this literature? I have never come across this and there are many, many people with Ich and Velvet free tanks that would seemingly contradict this. I have had neither in about 7 years, so it would seem strange that any dormant ich or velvet would not have become active in that time frame.

The word always is quite strong and not something scientists uses cavalierly.

I'm genuinely interested in reading this stuff. I'm here to learn, and I am open to being wrong. There's way too much misinformation spread online.

The wild is obviously a vastly different environment than our tanks. One can be controlled and the other cannot. Many people start tanks with dry rock and have strict quarantine protocols. I don't think the ocean is a perfect analogue to what we are doing in our reefs.

 

[Andy V]

I only mean that Ich and Velvet even can always be in dormant stages of their life cycle in an apparently disease free tank. Read up on this in the aquarium literature, it is a well supported view and has been tested by some. I work in marine systems (the wild) and find it hard to believe that any fish tank started with live collected rock or even little bits of it does not have some common aquarium pests hitching a ride on it.

The only stuff I have come across relates to hypoxic zones and water temperatures that we do not have in reef tanks.

Both of these conditions are easily avoided.

I can say with 100% certainty that nobody is keeping a reef at 12C, the temperature in which some research has shown certain strains of ich to become active again when water temp rises after 4-5 months (not always) of dormancy.

Hypoxic zones are easily avoided in reef tanks, although some people with deep sand beds and poor flow might have them.

 

[dz6t]

One of the reasons that marine ich can exist in apparently healthy aquarium is due to fish immunity. Quote from a publication from University of Florida:

“Fish that survive a Cryptocaryon infection develop immunity, which can prevent significant disease for up to
6 months (Burgess 1992; Burgess and Matthews 1995). However, these survivors may act as carriers and provide a reservoir for future outbreaks (Colorni and Burgess 1997).”

There also can be a continuous small infection on fish but fish is appeared to be healthy due to strong immune system.

The time for ich to dormant is vary dramatically, from 3 to 72 days (Colorni and Burgess 1997). That rendered the common two to three week QT practice from some retailers ineffective.

Hope these helps.






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[Andy V]

One of the reasons that marine ich can exist in apparently healthy aquarium is due to fish immunity. Quote from a publication from University of Florida:

“Fish that survive a Cryptocaryon infection develop immunity, which can prevent significant disease for up to
6 months (Burgess 1992; Burgess and Matthews 1995). However, these survivors may act as carriers and provide a reservoir for future outbreaks (Colorni and Burgess 1997).”

There also can be a continuous small infection on fish but fish is appeared to be healthy due to strong immune system.

The time for ich to dormant is vary dramatically, from 3 to 72 days (Colorni and Burgess 1997). That rendered the common two to three week QT practice from some retailers ineffective.

Hope these helps.

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Hey Dong. This is pretty well understood. I would argue that proper QT with prophylactic treatment reduces the chance of infecting the DT to near zero.

Either way, this is a far cry from the statement that "most parasites are always in our systems."

 

[dz6t]

Yes it can be done. But proper QT means a very long period of time in QT tank for every single fish that going in to the display. And not adding any new fish in the tank after that.
But most hobbyists are constantly adding new fish to their tank and render any previous QT practice ineffective.




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[Andy V]

Yes it can be done. But proper QT means a very long period of time in QT tank for every single fish that going in to the display. And not adding any new fish in the tank after that.
But most hobbyists are constantly adding new fish to their tank and render any previous QT practice ineffective.




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Well, you can add new fish, you just have to QT every new fish. I would argue the hobbyists constantly adding new fish - aside from those running businesses in their basement! - are doing so because they can't keep fish alive. Often because they don't do proper QT. I had not bought new fish in several years until recently and it sure seems the health of fish in the supply chain today is awful, so QT is more necessary than ever.

QT is not perfect, but it sure as hell is more effective than nothing, which is what many people do.

The problem with the statement that "most parasites are always present" is that it leads people to believe there is nothing they can do to reduce risk. However, I am waiting to see any literature that supports this statement - which I concede I may not be aware of.

Doing nothing because there remains a 1% (I'm making that up) chance of your DT getting infected after QT is akin to telling everybody they shouldn't bother to vaccinate their children.

 

[dz6t]

Constantly adding fish or replace dead fish is very common.


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[Blitzburggirl]

I’ve seen tangs in systems that have not had a fish add it in literally years develop ich.

Also, it’s not just the addition of fish, but also coral and rock that can introduce parasites. Parasites travel in many ways, and even the most vigilant hobbiests have to admit that there are holes in their quarantine practices, if they exist at all.

The advice given is fantastic.

First, don’t add obviously sick fish to your display. But that’s a longer an option.

Now the best thing to do is to reduce stress in the best ways possible. If you have robust seemingly healthy fish, remove them. QT them and let it play out with the sick fish in the display. Feed and temp... also, reluctant eaters tend to eat better with a bit of garlic added. If this is the tank with the gorgeous gigs be aware my gigs and haddoni did not appreciate garlic, so make sure you keep them fed well.

 

[Andy V]

Constantly adding fish or replace dead fish is very common.


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Yeah, I guess it would be for people with larger tanks. For me with only 60 gallons, I filled it up pretty much immediately. I've only lost maybe three or so fish in seven years (two this year that I had for 7 years), which is why I recently added more - after proper QT of course

 

[dz6t]

Velvet is worse than Ich when acquire new fish. Fish can come with Velvet in its gill without sign on its skin. Then within two to three days, it will show sign of Velvet on its skin but then it is too late.


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[Blitzburggirl]

Oh, I'm sorry.. I'm still new around here, I thought it was a different reefer that was experiencing this because I couldn't think of another tank that would be a home for 5 tangs all at once. So please disregard the portion of my comment related to nems

I wish you the best in mitigating this horrible situation. It really is a shame when a seller does something that is either shady or looks shady, then disappears. It's so sad seeing that loss of life, and I'm sure it's doubly heartbreaking for you.