Lots of fish came like that and Died - Is this sick fish?

Oh, I'm sorry.. I'm still new around here, I thought it was a different reefer that was experiencing this because I couldn't think of another tank that would be a home for 5 tangs all at once. So please disregard the portion of my comment related to nems :)

I wish you the best in mitigating this horrible situation. It really is a shame when a seller does something that is either shady or looks shady, then disappears. It's so sad seeing that loss of life, and I'm sure it's doubly heartbreaking for you.
The seller Rodney HIcks disappeared and even lied on paypal so I couldn't get my money back, now paypal is asking me to proof throughout a local store that fish was sent sick, which I don't think no one would do at this point. They all will jump off if I ask I'm sure. No one wants to get involved, I'm sure. But lesson learned that did cost me over 5K, but I will not give up to the hobby, that's it's per sure my friend
 
The seller Rodney HIcks disappeared and even lied on paypal so I couldn't get my money back, now paypal is asking me to proof throughout a local store that fish was sent sick, which I don't think no one would do at this point. They all will jump off if I ask I'm sure. No one wants to get involved, I'm sure. But lesson learned that did cost me over 5K, but I will not give up to the hobby, that's it's per sure my friend
I'm sorry this happened to you. The best thing you can do is spread the news - accurately - across all of the major forums so this guy is put out of business. Just stick to the facts.
 
Take it easy and have fun with your tanks AndyV. The invert parasites only come out of hiding on stressed animals. If your animals are happy, you will have nothing to fight off.
 
Paulo, I am sorry this happened. Bad circumstances. My best advice, never buy so many specimens at once, and never let anyone Quarantine for you. Some specimens are better not quarantined sometimes. It is a crap shoot at best when you try to add new animals in a marine tank.
 
Take it easy and have fun with your tanks AndyV. The invert parasites only come out of hiding on stressed animals. If your animals are happy, you will have nothing to fight off.

Thanks. I would still like to see the literature you refer to. You said it is well understood, which would indicate there are numerous studies on this that have probably been replicated.

I cannot find any of those studies. Again, I am open to being wrong, but I think your statement that "most parasites are always present in our systems" is not supported by any literature at all.

I don't think anyone should believe this statement unless there is actual evidence to support it. And I am not even sure how scientists could have conducted experiments to support that statement.
 
One of the reasons that marine ich can exist in apparently healthy aquarium is due to fish immunity. Quote from a publication from University of Florida:

“Fish that survive a Cryptocaryon infection develop immunity, which can prevent significant disease for up to
6 months (Burgess 1992; Burgess and Matthews 1995). However, these survivors may act as carriers and provide a reservoir for future outbreaks (Colorni and Burgess 1997).”

There also can be a continuous small infection on fish but fish is appeared to be healthy due to strong immune system.

The time for ich to dormant is vary dramatically, from 3 to 72 days (Colorni and Burgess 1997). That rendered the common two to three week QT practice from some retailers ineffective.

Hope these helps.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is not directed at you, Dong, because you already conceded ich can be prevented.

This is for other people reading through the thread. This same paper that Dong quoted also states the following:

"An understanding of Cryptocaryon’s life cycle provides a scientific framework for disease prevention and management "

This statement shows that it is possible to have an ich free tank.

I also have emailed Peter Burgess and Angelo Colorni, two of the most cited experts in the world on this parasite. If reading their papers is too much work, perhaps them answering this question directly will convince people. Stay tuned.
 
Velvet is worse than Ich when acquire new fish. Fish can come with Velvet in its gill without sign on its skin. Then within two to three days, it will show sign of Velvet on its skin but then it is too late.


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True that I just lived it 10 fish dead in 3 days
2c31c81836c6b1cd9aabccf08b44d378.jpg



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I've received a response from Dr. Colorni - one of the most cited scientists and leading experts in the world on fish disease - which I will post below.

Let me start this post by articulating my intention. My intention is to spread truth and help educate hobbyists that don't know about a particular topic - in this case, fish disease.

This forum (and hobby) is so full of myths and misinformation it's incredible. There is a lot that is still unknown about the hobby, and with so many variables we are often guessing at solutions or answers.

So when something as well understood as ich and velvet are concerned, we should not be spreading lies, myths, and misinformation. These things have a lot of scientific study behind them, and we have a very good understanding of their biology, life cycles, methods to cure them, and how to prevent them from entering our systems.

This forum should be a place where people come to learn, exchange accurate information, make friends, enjoy the hobby, etc. It should not be a place where people spread myths, mislead people, or pretend something is based in reality when it isn't. Particularly to newbies. Which gets us to the issue here.

For those who don't want to read the email exchange, here is the summary of what Dr. Colorni said:

1) Is ich and/or velvet always present in a home aquarium? NO
2) Is there a scientific framework for QT methods to substantially mitigate, if not entirely prevent, the introduction of these parasites into our aquariums? YES

I'm especially annoyed at people that make baseless claims and then disappear when they are shown to be wrong. It's nothing personal, but spreading myths and misinformation does not help the hobby. It hurts the hobby, leads to unnecessary fish deaths, and makes people leave the hobby.

@gobyvin I am still waiting for any literature to support your claims, but I am 99.9% sure there isn't any. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but you held yourself out as an authority, and then made up a bunch of stuff that is not based on any evidence at all. You claimed:

"...most parasites are always in our systems."

This is easily disproved. Which is why I politely asked you to clarify your statement. It was an opportunity for you to revise - which you did - to this:

"I only mean that Ich and Velvet even can always be in dormant stages of their life cycle in an apparently disease free tank. Read up on this in the aquarium literature, it is a well supported view and has been tested by some. I work in marine systems (the wild) and find it hard to believe that any fish tank started with live collected rock or even little bits of it does not have some common aquarium pests hitching a ride on it. "

Ich and Velvet cannot always be in dormant stages. This is categorically false based on current evidence. No study has found ich that was dormant for longer than 72 days at reef water temperatures. And those were isolated strains. The vast majority of ich strains have a dormant period of two weeks. So you can decide how you QT to eliminate the chance of ich. I personally QT for 90 days. But if you QT for a few weeks you are basically reducing your risk substantially. Your statement is not a well supported view. Your view contradicts all known science and what most research universities and scientists believe to be true.

Then despite me asking more than once for proof of your statements, you ignored me and said this:

"The invert parasites only come out of hiding on stressed animals. If your animals are happy, you will have nothing to fight off. "

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the life cycle of these parasites. It's simply not true at all.

Here is the life cycle of ich:

- Trophont (feeding stage where it is on your fish) - 3-7 days
- Protomont (after it drops from your fish, it loses cilia and flattens before hitting substrate) 2-18 hours
- Tomont (encysted reproductive stage, commonly called the dormant stage) 3-72 days, majority 4-8 days
- Tomite (daughters of tomonts) the combined time for tomont and tomite stages are 3-72 days, majority 4-8 days
- Theront (free-swimming infective stage) this is the stage where ich can be killed by medication. It must find a host within 48 hours before it dies
- Trophont - back to the beginning

These parasites cannot lay dormant forever as you claim. And they do not hang out feeding on fish forever either. They stay on the fish for 7 days at the longest.

Here is one paper (there are many, many more) describing the life cycle:

http://agrilifecdn.tamu.edu/fisheri...ections-Marine-White-Spot-Disease-in-Fish.pdf

@gobyvin Again, this is nothing personal, but myths and misinformation need to be called out. It's not mean or rude to call people out for this. People should not make baseless claims if they don't want to be questioned. After this thread started, I've attempted to help you in another thread so hopefully you won't take this personally.

Anybody that thinks ich is always in our systems might as well believe the earth is flat.

And finally, here is the email exchange with Dr. Colorni, copied verbatim:

My email to Dr. Colorni:

Dr. Colorni,

My name is Andrew and I have been doing reading on fish diseases for my local aquarium club. I have read through a lot of your work and I truly appreciate your contributions to the science.

After reading your work, I think I have a good understanding of the lifecycle of crytocaryon irritans and how to prevent it from entering a closed aquarium environment. There seems to be a persistent argument amongst saltwater hobbyists that I was hoping you could settle definitively. Here are the questions:

1. Is it true that cryptocaryon irritans is always present in home aquariums? I'd ask the same question for Amyloodinium Ocellatum.

2. Assuming that the answer to the previous question is no, would you agree that there are currently known quarantine protocols that can prevent (or almost entirely mitigate the risk of) the introduction cryptocaryon irritans and/or Amyloodinium Ocellatum into a home aquarium?

If you do not have time to respond, I understand. But I truly hope you can help me with these questions.

Thank you for your time.


His response:

Dear Andrew,

Thank you for your interest in my work.

With regard to your first question: neither Cryptocaryon irritans nor Amyloodinium ocellatum is “always present” in home aquariums. However, both are often present on fish sold in pet shops.

As for your second question: the most practical and efficient method to prevent, or at least mitigate, the risk of introducing these two parasites into your home aquarium, consists in switching daily (or at least not later than every second day) any new fish between two containers for at least 2-3 weeks, taking care of drying every time thoroughly the container the fish come from. In this way any trophont (parasitic stage) potentially present on the fish will reach maturity and full size (depending on water temperature it takes a few days) and will then drop from the fish, while the thorough drying of the potentially infected container will interrupt the parasite’s life cycle in its dividing benthic stage.

Good luck,

Angelo Colorni


So @Fishing , I hope you can now see who has credibility on this topic and who does not.

Anybody that doubts the authenticity of this email is welcome to PM me and I will provide the evidence.
 
Damm dude, you're gonna pop a vessel or something stressing out like that! Sounds like you've been sleeping and raging on this topic all week :D

If you think using your brain to do research and think equals stress and rage, then you aren't going far in life.

I'm sorry if I actually contributed something of actual worth to the forum.
 
Last edited:
I've received a response from Dr. Colorni - one of the most cited scientists and leading experts in the world on fish disease - which I will post below.

Let me start this post by articulating my intention. My intention is to spread truth and help educate hobbyists that don't know about a particular topic - in this case, fish disease.

This forum (and hobby) is so full of myths and misinformation it's incredible. There is a lot that is still unknown about the hobby, and with so many variables we are often guessing at solutions or answers.

So when something as well understood as ich and velvet are concerned, we should not be spreading lies, myths, and misinformation. These things have a lot of scientific study behind them, and we have a very good understanding of their biology, life cycles, methods to cure them, and how to prevent them from entering our systems.

This forum should be a place where people come to learn, exchange accurate information, make friends, enjoy the hobby, etc. It should not be a place where people spread myths, mislead people, or pretend something is based in reality when it isn't. Particularly to newbies. Which gets us to the issue here.

For those who don't want to read the email exchange, here is the summary of what Dr. Colorni said:

1) Is ich and/or velvet always present in a home aquarium? NO
2) Is there a scientific framework for QT methods to substantially mitigate, if not entirely prevent, the introduction of these parasites into our aquariums? YES

I'm especially annoyed at people that make baseless claims and then disappear when they are shown to be wrong. It's nothing personal, but spreading myths and misinformation does not help the hobby. It hurts the hobby, leads to unnecessary fish deaths, and makes people leave the hobby.

@gobyvin I am still waiting for any literature to support your claims, but I am 99.9% sure there isn't any. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but you held yourself out as an authority, and then made up a bunch of stuff that is not based on any evidence at all. You claimed:

"...most parasites are always in our systems."

This is easily disproved. Which is why I politely asked you to clarify your statement. It was an opportunity for you to revise - which you did - to this:

"I only mean that Ich and Velvet even can always be in dormant stages of their life cycle in an apparently disease free tank. Read up on this in the aquarium literature, it is a well supported view and has been tested by some. I work in marine systems (the wild) and find it hard to believe that any fish tank started with live collected rock or even little bits of it does not have some common aquarium pests hitching a ride on it. "

Ich and Velvet cannot always be in dormant stages. This is categorically false based on current evidence. No study has found ich that was dormant for longer than 72 days at reef water temperatures. And those were isolated strains. The vast majority of ich strains have a dormant period of two weeks. So you can decide how you QT to eliminate the chance of ich. I personally QT for 90 days. But if you QT for a few weeks you are basically reducing your risk substantially. Your statement is not a well supported view. Your view contradicts all known science and what most research universities and scientists believe to be true.

Then despite me asking more than once for proof of your statements, you ignored me and said this:

"The invert parasites only come out of hiding on stressed animals. If your animals are happy, you will have nothing to fight off. "

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the life cycle of these parasites. It's simply not true at all.

Here is the life cycle of ich:

- Trophont (feeding stage where it is on your fish) - 3-7 days
- Protomont (after it drops from your fish, it loses cilia and flattens before hitting substrate) 2-18 hours
- Tomont (encysted reproductive stage, commonly called the dormant stage) 3-72 days, majority 4-8 days
- Tomite (daughters of tomonts) the combined time for tomont and tomite stages are 3-72 days, majority 4-8 days
- Theront (free-swimming infective stage) this is the stage where ich can be killed by medication. It must find a host within 48 hours before it dies
- Trophont - back to the beginning

These parasites cannot lay dormant forever as you claim. And they do not hang out feeding on fish forever either. They stay on the fish for 7 days at the longest.

Here is one paper (there are many, many more) describing the life cycle:

http://agrilifecdn.tamu.edu/fisheri...ections-Marine-White-Spot-Disease-in-Fish.pdf

@gobyvin Again, this is nothing personal, but myths and misinformation need to be called out. It's not mean or rude to call people out for this. People should not make baseless claims if they don't want to be questioned. After this thread started, I've attempted to help you in another thread so hopefully you won't take this personally.

Anybody that thinks ich is always in our systems might as well believe the earth is flat.

And finally, here is the email exchange with Dr. Colorni, copied verbatim:

My email to Dr. Colorni:

Dr. Colorni,

My name is Andrew and I have been doing reading on fish diseases for my local aquarium club. I have read through a lot of your work and I truly appreciate your contributions to the science.

After reading your work, I think I have a good understanding of the lifecycle of crytocaryon irritans and how to prevent it from entering a closed aquarium environment. There seems to be a persistent argument amongst saltwater hobbyists that I was hoping you could settle definitively. Here are the questions:

1. Is it true that cryptocaryon irritans is always present in home aquariums? I'd ask the same question for Amyloodinium Ocellatum.

2. Assuming that the answer to the previous question is no, would you agree that there are currently known quarantine protocols that can prevent (or almost entirely mitigate the risk of) the introduction cryptocaryon irritans and/or Amyloodinium Ocellatum into a home aquarium?

If you do not have time to respond, I understand. But I truly hope you can help me with these questions.

Thank you for your time.

His response:

Dear Andrew,

Thank you for your interest in my work.

With regard to your first question: neither Cryptocaryon irritans nor Amyloodinium ocellatum is “always present” in home aquariums. However, both are often present on fish sold in pet shops.

As for your second question: the most practical and efficient method to prevent, or at least mitigate, the risk of introducing these two parasites into your home aquarium, consists in switching daily (or at least not later than every second day) any new fish between two containers for at least 2-3 weeks, taking care of drying every time thoroughly the container the fish come from. In this way any trophont (parasitic stage) potentially present on the fish will reach maturity and full size (depending on water temperature it takes a few days) and will then drop from the fish, while the thorough drying of the potentially infected container will interrupt the parasite’s life cycle in its dividing benthic stage.

Good luck,

Angelo Colorni

So @Fishing , I hope you can now see who has credibility on this topic and who does not.

Anybody that doubts the authenticity of this email is welcome to PM me and I will provide the evidence.
This is great work @Andy V thanks
 
Hi AndyV. I appreciate your work very much and believe your summary to be correct from what you have found and I have read.

You are probably going to pop a vessel if I tell you I am a scientist.

Nothing I said is refuted by your arguments.

I simply, make sure you understand, SIMPLY, stated that the possibility of invertebrate parasites like ich can be present at all times
is very likely.

I mainly meant by that statement the following:
depending on the QT techniques used, the likelihood of parasites in any given system is high if:
The aquarist does not time the QT duration to reduce the possibility of any new life cycles of ANY parasite are introduced.

You found literature, and a willing PHD to correspond with (that is a surprise)

Google is a powerful tool for misinformation and so is academia. I encourage you to consider common practice in this hobby and ask yourself if my statements seem unreasonable at that point. I am a marine ecologist and know the intricacies of these parasites life cycles well, and well enough to know that any fish, invert, live rock, plant or water that is introduced could influence the parasite loads in an aquarium.

Consider all the possibilities, and be realistic about your conclusions. The literature is almost any book about saltwater aquariums ever written. Moe, to Julian Sprung and everything in between.

I did not mean to anger anyone. I ask you consider the way most of us run our tanks and manage livestock when considering my statement.
 
AndyV, yes, I agree that the parasites cannot stay dormant forever. I did not state that they can, rather, I meant that through introductions of animals over periods of time, they can be reintroduced. Do you 90 day quarantine all coral frags from tanks that have foreign fish in them? If you don’t there many be parasites getting introduced into your system every time you add other animals other than fish... that was the basis for my original statements when I was trying to help Paulo put his experience into perspective.
 
By the way, Mr. Colorni’s container rotation symphony of QT will probably kill any fish in captivity. I would NEVER subject a living creature to this treatment. It is cruel and unnecessary. Every two days??! A new sterile container??! How would one manage stable water quality??
 
Hi AndyV. I appreciate your work very much and believe your summary to be correct from what you have found and I have read.

You are probably going to pop a vessel if I tell you I am a scientist.

Nothing I said is refuted by your arguments.

I simply, make sure you understand, SIMPLY, stated that the possibility of invertebrate parasites like ich can be present at all times
is very likely.

I mainly meant by that statement the following:
depending on the QT techniques used, the likelihood of parasites in any given system is high if:
The aquarist does not time the QT duration to reduce the possibility of any new life cycles of ANY parasite are introduced.

You found literature, and a willing PHD to correspond with (that is a surprise)

Google is a powerful tool for misinformation and so is academia. I encourage you to consider common practice in this hobby and ask yourself if my statements seem unreasonable at that point. I am a marine ecologist and know the intricacies of these parasites life cycles well, and well enough to know that any fish, invert, live rock, plant or water that is introduced could influence the parasite loads in an aquarium.

Consider all the possibilities, and be realistic about your conclusions. The literature is almost any book about saltwater aquariums ever written. Moe, to Julian Sprung and everything in between.

I did not mean to anger anyone. I ask you consider the way most of us run our tanks and manage livestock when considering my statement.

I am not surprised that you are a scientist. After you said you worked in the industry, I checked your profile and saw that you are a fishery ecologist. So I knew who I was dealing with the entire time.

I didn't just look at Google...I went to the literature itself and have read many papers in their entirety over many years. You can find me posting about this six years ago.

As you pointed out, I spoke with one of the most cited scientists in the world on this topic. And it really wasn't surprising he corresponded with me. I correspond with scientists regularly in the course of my investment research. They are quite happy to share what they know with interested people.

You just said that you believe my summary to be correct (that proper QT substantially reduces, if not totally prevents ich and velvet), while simultaneously saying I did not refute your point. Where is our confusion?

This statement:

"...depending on the QT techniques used, the likelihood of parasites in any given system is high if:
The aquarist does not time the QT duration to reduce the possibility of any new life cycles of ANY parasite are introduced."

Is a vastly different statement than what you originally said. You are basically conceding that QT is effective if done properly, are you not?

If you had just said from the beginning something like:

"Most hobbyists will not execute a QT protocol properly (or even attempt one), and therefore their tank is very likely to have ich or velvet."

I would completely agree with you. But that is not what you said, you said "most parasites are always present." And that is very misleading because people will read it as, "well, I can't avoid ich so might as well do nothing."

So let me just ask you a question plainly:

1) Do you believe there is a QT protocol, that when followed properly substantially reduces, if not entirely eliminates the introduction of ich and velvet into aquariums?

This the really the crux of the issue. I completely agree that probably 95% (guessing) of hobbyists do not have proper QT protocols that they execute consistently. But too many people believe that ich and velvet are unavoidable, which is not true. As a result they keep taking zero precautions to avoid disease.
 
AndyV, yes, I agree that the parasites cannot stay dormant forever. I did not state that they can, rather, I meant that through introductions of animals over periods of time, they can be reintroduced. Do you 90 day quarantine all coral frags from tanks that have foreign fish in them? If you don’t there many be parasites getting introduced into your system every time you add other animals other than fish... that was the basis for my original statements when I was trying to help Paulo put his experience into perspective.

Looks like we got crossed up with my last post.

Yes, my QT protocol involves a 90 day quarantine for fish and a separate 90 day QT for any corals/invertebrates. Corals and invertebrates are easy - just keep fish out. Fish are harder.

I QT fish with prophylactic copper, and multiple antibiotics. I also feed food soaked in Focus and de-wormers.

Is this work? Yes. Is this a pain? Yes. Does this require patience? Yes. Do you have to be meticulous? Yes.

But this is what I do to keep parasites out of my tank.
 
By the way, Mr. Colorni’s container rotation symphony of QT will probably kill any fish in captivity. I would NEVER subject a living creature to this treatment. It is cruel and unnecessary. Every two days??! A new sterile container??! How would one manage stable water quality??

I don't use the tank transfer method, but many people do successfully. I am pretty sure Roger Williams University does it. I use copper as I mentioned in the last post. TTM is hard and expensive when using 40 or 20 gallon QT tanks.
 
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