Killing Frags

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Well my QT system is still killing acro frags..

I took some good advice from Don (ReeferMedic)and placed some live rock into the sump of the QT system. However, I probably need more than what is currently in the sump (~30 pounds) I also have been doing water changes using water from my main system which is doing really well (except for algae problems which is another story). So far I lost the screaming teal acro frag ( my favorite new frag ). The tissue was quickly dissolving away from the skeleton over the last few days and I removed it today. One other small (1 inch) acro frag is going south and another larger frag (4 inches) is doing well. The green chalice is also doing well so far. I'm not sure why the larger acro and the chalice seem to be doing fine whereas the smaller acro frags (1 inch or so) have done poorly.

So far, I tried reducing the lighting by raising the 175W MH pendant, more frequent water changes (every 3 days) and adding some live rock. This problem has been going on for some time and I am really stumped at this point. Any suggestions or comments are welcome....I really need some good brainstorming to figure this out....I feel like I am out of things to try.

Details on the system:

40 gallon breeder tank
50 gallon rubbermade sump
HOB Prizm skimmer
175 W 14k MH pendant (on 12 hours/ off 12 hours - around 2.5 feet above water surface)
4 MJ200 PH faced towards the front glass to disperse the flow
30 pounds of live rock - I plan to transfer more live rock from my main system sump
DIY automatic top off system
PanWorld main pump

Temp: 78 degrees
Ca: 425
Alk: 11 dKh
P04: < 0.01
N03: 0
N04: 0
NH4: 0

 

[ReeferMedic]

Maybe lack of light Chuck? 30" above the water with 175 watt bulbs may not be enough for high light acros. Just a thought....

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Light

Thank you for the response Don. The reason I raised the lights was to eliminate the possibility that the frags were getting too much light. Originally the pendant was around 10 inches above the water surface and the frags died. Now with the pendant at around 30" above the water, there is not much different, unfortunately. So, at least by this experiment, it seems that the light intensity can be eliminated as the root cause.

Don, do you think I may need more live rock? I have read that 2 pounds per gallon of water is the minimum. But there is nothing but 4 frags in the QT and so not as much demand on the "natural filtration" as there would be in a tank with corals AND fish. I also run the small HOB skimmer. I have more LR in my main system sump and I could transfer more into the QT....what do you think?

The other thing is that it is not pitch black at night in my fish room since I run a refugium with lights on 24/7. Is there any way that the "spillover" light from the refugium could be stressing out the frags in the QT?

Maybe lack of light Chuck? 30" above the water with 175 watt bulbs may not be enough for high light acros. Just a thought....

 

[Reef55]

Run a full panel of tests on water in your frag tank and post the results.

 

[MikeG]

Could it be an issue with flow? I have noticed the same thing in my frag tank. SPS slowly recede over time. If I put them in the display they recover and take off. My frag tank is connected to the display so water is identical. I used the clubs PAR meter to ensure they both had similar light level. It was set so the light in the frag tank was the same as 12" under water in the display, both directly under the bulb. My display has a ssb and the frag tank is bare bottom. And I onl;y have a small powerhead in the frag tank which is a 20L along with a small portion T'd off from the return pump. So only differences in mine are the sand and flow. One of them has to be causing the issues for me.

 

[Liam]

I have a 40 gallon frag tank chuck.I have only three pieces of live rock in it.
I have around 50-60 frags in it since the beginning of the year.
I have lost a few frags which i put down to a combination of things,too much light and too low nutrients(after coming from a higher nutrient system)

I have a 250 12 inches above the tank.i was using a 10k but that was too much light for my shallow set up and i changed it to a radium which was much weaker and seemed to do the trick.

From the sounds of your set up i would say you need a decent skimmer,also be very dilligent about keeping your alk stable and in the 8 dkh range.
I would also recommend a couple of damsels just to give the system some bioload,it may just be too sterile.

all my frags are doing great now and i have not lost anything for a good 2 months.My frags actually only started growing when i went to a weaker bulb.

also remember frags are always going to be weakened from the get go,i have a few small colonies and they flourished from the beginning when the frags were struggling

 

[bigdog]

i have a 40 breeder with a 150 10k usieo bulb 12 inches pounding on mixed reef and im fine try 2 lower your lights

 

[bigdog]

sorry 12 inches of the top of tank

 

[Ray]

Chuck are you treating that tank with anything? What are you treating the corals with and for how long before they enter that tank?

 

[ReeferMedic]

I would also recommend a couple of damsels just to give the system some bioload,it may just be too sterile.

This could be the case also imo.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Hi Mark!

ACtually, the water parameters are listed above...

Run a full panel of tests on water in your frag tank and post the results.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Flow

Lot's of flow in the tank so I don't think it is the problem.

Could it be an issue with flow? I have noticed the same thing in my frag tank. SPS slowly recede over time. If I put them in the display they recover and take off. My frag tank is connected to the display so water is identical. I used the clubs PAR meter to ensure they both had similar light level. It was set so the light in the frag tank was the same as 12" under water in the display, both directly under the bulb. My display has a ssb and the frag tank is bare bottom. And I onl;y have a small powerhead in the frag tank which is a 20L along with a small portion T'd off from the return pump. So only differences in mine are the sand and flow. One of them has to be causing the issues for me.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Treatments

Hi Ray! This time I decided not to treat the QT to eliminate the possibility that Interceptor or Fluke Tabs are causing the problem.

Chuck are you treating that tank with anything? What are you treating the corals with and for how long before they enter that tank?

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Nutrients

I think this could very well be the problem. I have noticed thatI never and I mean never need to clean the front glass of the tank. Also, the P04 is lower in this tank that it is in my display. I tried to get the water a little "dirtier" by doing more water changes to get the water parameters in synch with the display but still no algae or need to clean the front glass.

You suggest adding Damsels, which may be the way to go. I wonder if I could just add some home-made fish food to bring up the phosphates and other nutrients? However, the Damsels may provide a more long term solution and more stable conditions.

I seriously think that this is the only thing left to look at. Thanks for the advice, Liam.

I have lost a few frags which i put down to a combination of things,too much light and too low nutrients(after coming from a higher nutrient system)

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Thanks everyone for all the great suggestions.....PLEASE KEEP THEM COMING!

 

[Richard]

Why don't you just ust the water from the display for water changes to the frag tank? That way the water chem will be the same

 

[MikeG]

Why don't you just ust the water from the display for water changes to the frag tank? That way the water chem will be the same

He does do that already.

 

[bellaquatics]

Rtn

I was searching online an came across the abstract to this paper. (Luna et al 2007) are suggesting that RTN is caused by an increase in vibrio harveyi populations. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17564618

I have experienced RTN in my tank and was able to salvage my coral by cutting above the necrotic tissue and than completely gluing over the freshly cut end. When you are desperate its worth a try.

-George

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Rtn

Thanks for the link to the article...I'll definitely read it after work tonight.

I also forgot to mention something that could provide a clue as to what the problem is (or better, isn't): All the corals that have perished (and there have been lots, including some really nice LE frags from all over the country) by first starting to bleach or STN (or whatever you want to call it ) from the bottom up. The bleaching is really slow and then increases in rate until the live tissue begins to finally peal off of the entire frag. So, by this observation, I believe that it is not a question of lighting being too strong since I think that strong lighting would cause bleaching from the top.

Just brain-storming here...I think Liam is on the right track. Gotta go get some Damsels and take a frag from my display tank and place it into the QT. I have a few colonies that are now large enough to frag. This way, I know where the frag came from, it is not stressed from shipping and I know what water conditions and lighting it is used to. Plus, I really don't want to "kill" any more frags from outside my system....it is getting rather expensive

I was searching online an came across the abstract to this paper. (Luna et al 2007) are suggesting that RTN is caused by an increase in vibrio harveyi populations. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17564618

I have experienced RTN in my tank and was able to salvage my coral by cutting above the necrotic tissue and than completely gluing over the freshly cut end. When you are desperate its worth a try.

-George

 

[sbertomen]

Not terribly experienced here, but I did just listen to a podcast which suggested using some polyfilter if you suspect some kind of contamination. Maybe something bad was in the frag tank before you set it up? Just throwing this out there.