Need advice on new reef tank

[ChrisV]

Thanks everyone!

So they are recommending a pro clear sump. They have them in stock. I looked at them and they have two ports for the incoming lines. And they use socks. How often do you have to clean the socks? I also came across roller mat filters, which seem more better!

And I've been reading about sump plumbing, and the Durso, Herbie, and Bean Animal configurations. BA sounds good to me because of the redundancy. What do people think? Other than redundancy, I want the display tank to be totally silent, or nearly so.

A bean animal configuration can be dead silent. If you want silent, make sure you buy silent gear. I know that sounds a bit pedantic, but hear me out. There are versions of most things that are marketed as being the silent version...of whatever. They are often a little bit more expensive, but if you make silence a priority, there is no reason the tank can't be silent. I'm currently keeping a couple of all in one tanks, but my last tank with a sump was kept in a dedicated theater room, and I was never annoyed with tank noise.

The roller mat question is an interesting one. I don't personally run one (hopefully folks who do will chime in), but here are a few thoughts. Historically, people pushed for very low nitrate and phosphate numbers in reef aquaria. The pendulum has swung the opposite direction. We have gotten so good at stripping the water of all nutrients (using things like very efficient protein skimmers, refugia, and roller mats) that a lot of people even dose nitrates. As hard as this is to believe, it is true. As you point out, roller mats are super convenient. Done correctly, filter socks should be cleaned like every other day, which is a total pain. Many don't actually do that, so when some people switch to roller mats, they actually see nitrate reduction to a point that is a concern. I suppose you could just advance the roller mat less frequently. Hopefully people who use them can add more.

 

[ChrisV]

I left the hobby right when the APEX was really getting to be the thing so I went back with it on my new tank. The amount of different controllers and adapters you can get it was made me go stay with it.

as far as the plumbing goes for that far of a run you need to think about temperature loss between sump and display. I know they make insulation for rigid pipe but I not sure how well it would work on flex.

This heat loss issue is a huge thing here in new england. Do people have in line heaters when they run remote sumps?

 

[srit1]

My sump to DT run is only ~12 feet, I have 3 heaters, one set to the lower end I want everything at and one in each DT set ~1 degree lower to cover this or if the sump goes offline for whatever reason.

 

[shrimpchips]

This heat loss issue is a huge thing here in new england. Do people have in line heaters when they run remote sumps?

Temp probe in the drain (water coming back from the DT) section and heaters with the return pumps should be fine. Given the flow rate and the distance, the heat loss is probably negligible in the time it hits the display or sump. This is how I run my system (100g DT) with about 30’ of flexible 1” PVC (2 lines down, 1 line up) connecting a first floor display to a basement sump, and the temp in the display is just fine.

 

[N_E_M_O]

I have one system that is 600 gallons total. There is a 120g (soon to be upgraded to a 280g.) That is 40' across the customers house and on the next floor (18' up) Temperature fluctuations from the plumbing are non noticeable. But flow rate and ambient temperature can obviously effect that.

As for a service companies not showing potential customers their accounts. Other than commercial accounts, I would have to agree. I will gladly show someone pictures and video of my service accounts. But no way I am ever going to take a stranger into any home that I service tanks at. Just a very bad Idea for SO many reasons, let alone the liability. Plus,for me, some high profile accounts/people don't want any company they don't know very well, lol

 

[Cpage101]

For Apex, I saw people saying that they get out of calibration and can be less reliable.

I run an apex now fro 7 years. like any system temp/PH/SG probes will have to be calibrated or replaced. My PH I calibrate every 6 months. ORp las one failed in 2 years. SG I just started using this year so not sure on that one and I just had a temp probe fail that was over 8 years old I got with the used apex classic I started with. Here is my one thing with the apex. I run the new fill apex brain but I utilize all old EB8 & EB4 power bars. I have read about too many failures of the new EB832 power bars which have power monitor and 1 link power outputs. To this day O would rather purchase the 1link power module and use old EB8’s and EB4’s than have a catastrophic failure of a power bar as I have read about. I will say my apex has saved my tank from 3 instances which could have been catastrophic. Like anything you need to be in tune with you tank as it will also tell you when it is not happy which I am sure you know if you have been a reefer before. Good luck on your new reefing journey! Happy Reefing

 

[Dave T]

Ok! I had a really good meeting with my installer this morning. I also talked to forum sponsor Kevin from All Things Aquatic, who will come out next week and also propose on the job.

There were a couple things this installer (not Kevin) told me that were different from what I thought I'd do. I'm not questioning his experience, this guy knows his stuff. But what surprised me was:

* He rarely uses power heads for generating current, Instead, he uses two return lines from the sump to the tank, and positions those to generate the current in the tank.

* I thought if I had SPS corals I'd want a calcium reactor/doser (if that's what it's called...). He said they just manually add calcium.

* He doesn't believe in dipping coral, says it's bad for the coral. Instead, he is careful about where it comes from, and visually inspects it before using.

* They only use acrylic tanks. I said I was concerned about scratches when cleaning, but he said that if you stay on top of your cleaning that you won't get anything that requires the kind of scrubbing that could cause a scratch.

Thoughts?

 

[ChrisV]

Ok! I had a really good meeting with my installer this morning. I also talked to forum sponsor Kevin from All Things Aquatic, who will come out next week and also propose on the job.

There were a couple things he told me that were different from what I thought I'd do. I'm not questioning his experience, this guy knows his stuff. But what surprised me was:

* He rarely uses power heads for generating current, Instead, he uses two return lines from the sump to the tank, and positions those to generate the current in the tank.

* I thought if I had SPS corals I'd want a calcium reactor/doser (if that's what it's called...). He said they just manually add calcium.

* He doesn't believe in dipping coral, says it's bad for the coral. Instead, he is careful about where it comes from, and visually inspects it before using.

* They only use acrylic tanks. I said I was concerned about scratches when cleaning, but he said that if you stay on top of your cleaning that you won't get anything that requires the kind of scrubbing that could cause a scratch.

Thoughts?

Yikes! No way in hell I would ever hire a person who doesn't believe in dipping corals.

Acrylic tanks WILL scratch. Putting that on you is unreasonable. If he is already telling you that any scratches in the acrylic are due to negligence on your part, that's a problem.

Also, most modern reef tanks don't use returns for flow. Power heads are WAY more sophisticated than they were 20 years ago. The amount of flow they generate is nuts. They do things like communicate with each other wirelessly to coordinate to generate surge, i.e. when one side ramps up the other side ramps down. Flow is a huge aspect of successful reefing and it has been revolutionized in the past 15 years or so.

The fact that he doesn't want to automate calcium addition via a reactor or a dosing pump means that he wants to be in charge of coming in to do as many tasks as possible to bill you by the hour. Nobody runs a tank of that size with 100% manual dosing. It's Much better for your coral to add calcium supplements and alkalinity gradually rather than all at once on a weekly basis.

My opinion is that sometimes in life you're stuck wondering what to do. This guy did you a great favor by making the decision to not hire him unambiguous. This would be the end of the conversation for me. But hopefully others will chime in.

 

[srit1]

Having both an acrylic (180) and a glass (210) tank, I will never have an acrylic tank again. Agree with ChrisV with everything else as well.

 

[Cpage101]

Yikes! No way in hell I would ever hire a person who doesn't believe in dipping corals.

Acrylic tanks WILL scratch. Putting that on you is unreasonable. If he is already telling you that any scratches in the acrylic are due to negligence on your part, that's a problem.

Also, most modern reef tanks don't use returns for flow. Power heads are WAY more sophisticated than they were 20 years ago. The amount of flow they generate is nuts. They do things like communicate with each other wirelessly to coordinate to generate surge, i.e. when one side ramps up the other side ramps down. Flow is a huge aspect of successful reefing and it has been revolutionized in the past 15 years or so.

The fact that he doesn't want to automate calcium addition via a reactor or a dosing pump means that he wants to be in charge of coming in to do as many tasks as possible to bill you by the hour. Nobody runs a tank of that size with 100% manual dosing. It's Much better for your coral to add calcium supplements and alkalinity gradually rather than all at once on a weekly basis.

My opinion is that sometimes in life you're stuck wondering what to do. This guy did you a great favor by making the decision to not hire him unambiguous. This would be the end of the conversation for me. But hopefully others will chime in.

wow just wow if you are going to do a sps dominant system stable alk is 2x more important than ca but ca is important too, I have 2 returns from the sump on my 120g but I also have 2 mp40’s and a pair of gyre 330’s note this is only 4’x 2’x 2’ tank and there is just enough flow lol!

 

[LaneBrain]

Yeah, these are some red flags honestly

 

[Dave T]

Well those are some strong reactions! But appreciated.

I stand by my opinion that this guy knows his stuff though. He's done things like setting up rooms of tanks at places like Woods Hole. But maybe his methods are a bit old fashioned.

Regarding the power heads, he talked about one potential downside being that you can get stray electrical current in the water. This wouldn't be an issue with something like the MP40 though, so maybe he doesn't know about those.

With the MP40, you still will have wires and the outside component of the unit outside the sides of your tank. Isn't that an issue? Seems unsightly. In theory, getting your flow from the return lines would be a lot cleaner. Does nobody here do that?

And if anyone near me is up for a visit, I'd love to come check out your system. Just send me a PM.

 

[Cpage101]

Well those are some strong reactions! But appreciated.

I stand by my opinion that this guy knows his stuff though. He's done things like setting up rooms of tanks at places like Woods Hole. But maybe his methods are a bit old fashioned.

Regarding the power heads, he talked about one potential downside being that you can get stray electrical current in the water. This wouldn't be an issue with something like the MP40 though, so maybe he doesn't know about those.

With the MP40, you still will have wires and the outside component of the unit outside the sides of your tank. Isn't that an issue? Seems unsightly. In theory, getting your flow from the return lines would be a lot cleaner. Does nobody here do that?

And if anyone near me is up for a visit, I'd love to come check out your system. Just send me a PM.

you can mount the mp40 on the back wall for cross flow front to back that is what I do the back of the tank is black and it blends in. BTW Kevin is a great guy.

 

[srit1]

For an SPS tank your returns just cannot return enough volume. Perhaps a Closed Loop should be considered though.

For context, you are not getting much more than 1k gph out of any given return line and it is going to be a very linear constant flow. An MP40 by comparison is popping 2-4k gph in various patterns and strengths.

 

[Dave T]

you can mount the mp40 on the back wall for cross flow feit to back that is what I do the back of the tank is black and it blends in. BTW Kevin is a great guy.

You had a typo, not sure what you mean by "feit to back". I'm not understanding what you're saying - if it's mounted to the back, wouldn't the flow be towards the tank front? Don't you want it coming from the sides?

 

[coralfishreef]

He is probably referring to a closed loop system.

David Saxby has a complex closed loop system.

https://www.theaquariumsolution.com/sites/default/files/files/Technical%20review%20of%20David%20Saxbys%20system2.pdf

Reefbuilders dual return closed loop

Building a Massive Closed Loop for the 400 Gallon Hardline Reef | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

There once was a time that every serious large reef tank was on track to become outfitted with a closed loop for providing water flow throughout the aquarium. Right before any kind of propeller pump…

reefbuilders.com

 

[ChrisV]

Also,

For an SPS tank your returns just cannot return enough volume. Perhaps a Closed Loop should be considered though.

For context, you are not getting much more than 1k gph out of any given return line and it is going to be a very linear constant flow. An MP40 by comparison is popping 2-4k gph in various patterns and strengths.

The other side of this is that basically everyone I know who has stayed in the hobby for more than a year ends up with at very least a mixed reef that has plenty of sps, if not an sps dominant tank. Sps are just so cool and diverse. I have a second tank that I set up only for zoanthids and I'm twitching with temptation to add "just a few" frags of sps. I really think the flow will matter, but I am also the sort of person who has a mp10 running on a 12.5 gallon cube.

Closed loops are one way to get flow if you really don't want power heads. They look slightly cleaner but not THAT much cleaner. You can also use sea swirls to generate random-ish flow. It's not impossible but it isn't the easy way, that's for sure.

Another point is that I don't even know which pump you would need to buy to provide the strength for a 40 ft run from the sump at enough velocity to provide 100% of the flow for a 150 gallon display.

The guy may very well know what he is talking about and it sounds like he has a successful company. The product he is trying to sell you is not the one I would personally buy, but who am I to say.

I think that no matter what you do, it's a great idea to have a few people come out to bid on the job. See what they say. I too have had nice interactions with Kevin from all things aquatic.

 

[Dave T]

He is probably referring to a closed loop system.

David Saxby has a complex closed loop system.

https://www.theaquariumsolution.com/sites/default/files/files/Technical%20review%20of%20David%20Saxbys%20system2.pdf

Reefbuilders dual return closed loop

Building a Massive Closed Loop for the 400 Gallon Hardline Reef | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

There once was a time that every serious large reef tank was on track to become outfitted with a closed loop for providing water flow throughout the aquarium. Right before any kind of propeller pump…

reefbuilders.com

That David Saxby aquarium is insane! Now I know what I want.

 

[BiGGiePauls33]

That David Saxby aquarium is insane! Now I know what I want.

Just remember that he is the man behind D-D Solutions and that setup is a culmination of years in the hobby, countless new products and money to boot.

 

[BiGGiePauls33]

Ok! I had a really good meeting with my installer this morning. I also talked to forum sponsor Kevin from All Things Aquatic, who will come out next week and also propose on the job.

There were a couple things he told me that were different from what I thought I'd do. I'm not questioning his experience, this guy knows his stuff. But what surprised me was:

* He rarely uses power heads for generating current, Instead, he uses two return lines from the sump to the tank, and positions those to generate the current in the tank.

* I thought if I had SPS corals I'd want a calcium reactor/doser (if that's what it's called...). He said they just manually add calcium.

* He doesn't believe in dipping coral, says it's bad for the coral. Instead, he is careful about where it comes from, and visually inspects it before using.

* They only use acrylic tanks. I said I was concerned about scratches when cleaning, but he said that if you stay on top of your cleaning that you won't get anything that requires the kind of scrubbing that could cause a scratch.

Thoughts?

Stay clear away from this guy if this is his recommendations. My $0.02