Question regarding ick

[Kevin McG]

I have a purple pseudochromis that is showing possible signs of ick. I cannot capture the little sucka so him so moving him is not a option,

Are there any ick products I can add to add to the tank without hurting anything? I am currently trying the garlic in the food method.

 

[clamm]

garlic...kick ick is the only other one that i have used and its reef safe. its pretty good but expensive.

 

[wrassefan]

get a pair of cleaner shrimp and feed garlic soaked food...adding a neon goby with the shrimp helps alot

 

[Kevin McG]

get a pair of cleaner shrimp and feed garlic soaked food...adding a neon goby with the shrimp helps alot

I already have 1 blood red fire shrimp. I am going to feed them again tonight with a couple of drops of garlic in there food. I would yank him but he is a tricky little guy and he is wearing my patience

 

[Kim]

Kick-ich or no-ich each are reef safe.

 

[wrassefan]

The blood red fire shrimp doesn't clean as well. The skunk cleaners also do a better job in pairs. I have both in my tank....haven't seen ick in a long time.

 

[Kevin McG]

The blood red fire shrimp doesn't clean as well. The skunk cleaners also do a better job in pairs. I have both in my tank....haven't seen ick in a long time.

I will to pick up one or two up this week.


thanks for the help people

 

[~Flighty~]

My opinion, but it isn't the same as everyone's: don't worry too much if the fish still looks "bright" (looking around, swimming normally...). At this point, do nothing except fix any contributing factors (temp/ salinity swings, ammonia, stress). Moving a fish to QT and treating isn't a good idea. The "bug" is already in your tank and if the fish can kick it on its own, it will have better immunity next time. Capture and QT add so much stress to an already sick fish, that might kill it on its own. Also, you have the problems of keeping the QT tank stable.

As for "prouducts" lots of people claim success with lots of things, but just like with human prouducts it is very hard to determine if the fish got better because of the prouduct or if it just got better on its own. My Dad swears that he never gets a cold if he takes a shot of scotch at the first sign of a sniffle. I think he just likes scotch. Resist the temptation to do something to feel like you are helping the fish.

If the fish starts to look really sick, go to reefcentral and get a diagnosis of the problem. There are a zillion causes of sick fish and different treatments for each one. Antibiotics might help one problem but hurt another, same with other "cures". Be sceptical of things that "boost the imune system" and cure anything.

I am a big fan of cleaner shrimp and gobies.

 

[MarkO]

Is the fish a new addition? If not, the ich might be a sign of something not quite right in your tank. I'd check your water quality.

 

[Kevin McG]

Thanks Cindy I may adopt that opinion it sound reasonable. I have checked all water parameters and other that my sality running at 1.024(usually 1.025) everythiing checks out. The fish is a new edition(last Friday) so other than the garlic I am going to wait a couple of days to see if is goes away. I will head to AA on Friday and grab a cleaner shrimp and maybe a goby.

 

[Matt L.]

My opinion...do nothing except fix any contributing factors (temp/ salinity swings, ammonia, stress). Moving a fish to QT and treating isn't a good idea. The "bug" is already in your tank and if the fish can kick it on its own,...

I share Cindy's sentiments exactly.

...[The Fish] will have better immunity next time...

You know, I've wondered about this. I am not sure why the fish is susceptible to Ich subsequent times when in all rights it should have developed immunity to the Ich the first time, like how we develop immunity to the chicken pox (one time and that's it). I believe the health of the fish plays a role, but I also believe that Ich, like many parasites, has some immune-fooling defense mechanism.

Capture and QT add so much stress to an already sick fish, that might kill it on its own. Also, you have the problems of keeping the QT tank stable.

Yeah, what Cindy said Echo echo escho...

I am a big fan of cleaner shrimp and gobies.

Your mileage may vary here. I had cleaner shrimp and they never did a darned thing other than steal food from my anemones and sun polyps.

Matt

 

[MarkO]

New fish... I think that explains it. Ich can take a few days, even weeks to appear. I'd just keep an eye on him and your other fish. If he ever starts to slow down to the point you can catch him, I'd probably remove him then, but only if you have a very stable quarantine with exact same water parameters as your tank.

 

[NateHanson]

On the immunity thing, it doesn't always follow that critters are immune after one bout of any illness, although I agree that it probably makes them better the second time around. Some things like Chicken-pox and Mononucleosis are one-shot deals, but Mosquitos just keep biting you, no matter how well you survived the last bite, and how many times have you had the flu, or if you're a frequenter of cruise ships, I'll bet you've had the Norwalk "Yak" virus more than once .
So it's not necessarily suprising that a fish can get ich twice.

I agree that natural cleaners and good care will probably pull this new fish out of illness as long as your tank conditions are good. However, if the fish really get's covered with ich or is behaving lethargically or has labored breathing in the future, I'd skip the quarantine, and go straight for KickIch. I used that once on a hippo that really got bad (lesions in his eyes so bad he couldn't see food, and would take bites out of the water trying to catch mysis) and he improved almost immediately, and now continues to be a very healthy and beautiful fish (in Dennis' tank).

I will to pick up one or two up this week.

I'd definitely pick up a pair. In my experience, they hide alot and don't clean when they're single.

Nate

 

[Fingolfin]

So it's not necessarily suprising that a fish can get ich twice.
Nate

Ich infection is a parasite infection. You can never get immunity from parasites. For bacterial infection, you need antibiotics to treat; for viral infection, you need your body to generate antibody to defeat the virus; for parasites infection, sorry, it's very very difficult to treat and to get rid of them. Parasites are, in a way, more like small animals. How do you kill little animals? poison. That's right, that's how you kill parasites.

No matter how commercial advertisement claims it's reef safe to use such and such to cure ich, I w'll never use them. How good it is to put poison in a reef tank even if you don't immediately see any obvious impact on other organisms? Have those vendors ever done study over a looooong period of time of the impact of those medication on other reef organisms? How can you claim the medication to be safe while you only monitor the impact for a short period of time? What if the medication has damaged other reef organisms but you can't visibly tell? Isn't Pfizer being sued for Celebrex, a popular pain reliever that once passed the so-called clinical trial for being safe on human?

I started keeping Saltwater fish back in '89. Over the years many many angelfishes/butterflyfishes died in my hand. Things didn't stabilize until I started reef system back in '97. Once the reef systems matured, I could clearly see that fish were much happier. One thing I've noticed, fish get ich every now and then. As long as the environment is stable and low-stress, they'll be fine and not bothered by ich at all. A healthy fish can fight off parasite infections with ease. If the infection gets worse, it's more than likely that the stress level in the environment has increased. Find the cause of the stress then remove it ASAP.

IMO, using medication in this case is only for hobbyists' own psychological sake. You see the fish suffer so you feel that you need to do something about it to make yourself feel better.

 

[~Flighty~]

Let me clarify what I ment when I said "better immunity next time". The parisite alone isn't the only problem. The parisites should have a hard time atacking the skin of a healthy animal. Stress, illness, and environmental issues can open the fish up to the parisites and that is just the symptom you see. This isn't to say that there aren't parisites out there able to kill a healthy fish, just chances are that isn't what your fish has. Having any open wound like the parisite infection leaves the fish open to secondary infection. It is these viruses and bacteria that start either before or after the ick that the fish gains at least partial immunity to. Their immune system will hopefully act quicker the next time after being attacked by the same bugger once.

One of the many reasons that tank raised fish do better is that their immune systems have been exposed to the illnesses in our tankes and survived them, rather than being exposed to a bunch of things all at once for the first time.

 

[Matt L.]

Ich infection is a parasite infection. You can never get immunity from parasites. For bacterial infection, you need antibiotics to treat; for viral infection, you need your body to generate antibody to defeat the virus; for parasites infection, sorry, it's very very difficult to treat and to get rid of them. Parasites are, in a way, more like small animals. How do you kill little animals? poison. That's right, that's how you kill parasites.

That is not entirely true, but certainly close enough.

For those of you who are interested, a healthy body will develope an immune response to any foreign body regardless of: a) size or b) whether the foreign body is bacteria, virus, or parasite. That is, unless, the body is fooled into accepting the foreign body.

My body will develop an immune response to a single virus or an entire human liver transplanted into me from another person (thereby recognised as foreign, hence transplant rejection). Parasites (in order to invade the body) are very clever at fooling the body into thinking that they are not foreign, but were here all along and are part of the body.

For example, the Bot Fly lays its larvae under human skin. An entire insect larvae will grow under the skin, feeding off human flesh, and the human body will not acknowledge its presence (even though it is an entirely different organism!). Yet if you take a heart from another human and transplant it, the body will surely recognise it as foreign, even though it is there to help and comes from another human being.

Also, parasites need not be macroscopic animals. There are many microscopic parasites as well.

Finally, just because we keep getting colds doesn't mean that the body doesn't develop an immune response to virusses. It most certainly does, as readily as it developes an immune response to bacterium. Colds are clever, in that they change their appearance to the body frequently, therefore being able to slip past security and reinvade each time. Like the chicken pox, you can not get the same cold or flu ever again.

Matt

 

[~Flighty~]

Thanks Matt, what do you do when your fish get sick? Do you believe that the garlic does anything? I have a hard time believing in "immune system boosters". Don't give them too much or the fish will all get multiple sclerosis or develop an H2O alergy.

 

[Fingolfin]

Thanks Matt, what do you do when your fish get sick? Do you believe that the garlic does anything? I have a hard time believing in "immune system boosters". Don't give them too much or the fish will all get multiple sclerosis or develop an H2O alergy.

I, too, have a hard time to believe in "immune system boosters". Years ago vitamin C was very popular. Albert Thiel was eagerly promoting it as a ich therapy or the so-called immune booster. Charles Delbeck was even arguing with other vitaminC-promoters in terms of vitamin C's usefulness.

It was vitamin C then, and it's garlic now. What's next? Chinese ginseng? Maybe we can apply some tiger balm on fish that got ich. Yep! that will work.

 

[Matt L.]

Thanks Matt, what do you do when your fish get sick?

1. Denial (My fish has ick?!? Impossible! I'm the best aquarist ever!)
2. Anger (G*d damm hobby!!! Why... must... everything... be... so... difficult... *loud crashes* RRRRRgggghhhhaaaaaahhhh!!!)
3. Bargaining (Okay, G*d, if you cure my fish of ick, I promise to quarentine next time...). This stage may be substituted with "Freaking Out" (I must do something now! I have to cure the fish today! A little copper won't hurt my reef, right?!?...)
4. Sadness (Oh, the humanity! I take this poor creature out of the ocean, place it in cruel captivity, and then subject it to daily torture)
5. Gradual Acceptance (Eh, ick happens and the fish always get better. Usually ick occurs when conditions are less then optimal in my system, and the occurrence is rare. I thankfully have never wittnessed a bad case, and therefore always let the fish just get over it. I am thinking of taking a second look at UV too...)

Do you believe that the garlic does anything?

No.

Well, not really. The only thing I think it can do is somehow make the fish less appealing to infection. I have no proof one way or the other. But you never know. There is a lot to be said for herbal remedies.

I have a hard time believing in "immune system boosters"...

So do I. My description of an immune response was for higher mammals. The immune system is still ofcus of study in man. Fish have much more primitive and much less studied immune systems, so I seriously doubt scientists know how to boost it, especially considering it has been studied much less than man. I believe sharks, skates, and rays are the first animals on the evolutionary tree to sport the cellular immune system we think of.

Matt

 

[Fingolfin]

I am thinking of taking a second look at UV too
Matt

UV can only do so much for reef tanks. It will only kill those who pass through, assuming that the flow is slow enough. It will never eradicate ich. Once you tune down the flow through UV, calcium starts depositing on the outer area of UV bulb, to the point that UV is useless. Of course, if you are not as lazy as me you would probably cleanse the UV bulb every now and then to make sure it works properly.

UV will also kill planktons in your tank, if you have any.