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Serious Ick Problem
- Thread starter flavescens
- Start date
yes, a lot of people at least say that some of the parisites can be embedded in gill tissue or otherwise in the skin. I think I remember reading somewhere that someone did some kind of more or less scientific examinations and found this to be true. I can't say this is or isn't fact, but it's what I've read.
Matt L.
Non-member
Ick
There are two lines of defense against Ick.
The first line of defense is not to introduce Ick into your system at all. In order to do this, fish must be quarantined for a period of 6 weeks and everything else must be quarantined separately in an environment without fish for an identical period of 6 weeks. That means every fish that goes into the system must be quarantined, as well as every snail, hermit, coral, live rock, and invert in separate system. Thus, in order to quarantine effectively, you need three systems: 1) your main system, 2) a system for quarantining fish, and 3) a third system for quarantining inverts, corals, and live rock. The fish quarantine system needs to be an environment hostile to the Ick parasite. Hyposalinity and temperature can work very well. Bear in mind many fish respond poorly to copper, especially over the long term. The invert and coral quarantine system can be a regular system; it just cannot have fish. In order to have a successful first line of defense, you need to be practicing this technique from time zero. You can't simply adopt these measures (or some of these measures) once you've set your system up and introduce fish. There simply is no invert safe method to eradicate Ick from a system. Sure, you can treat it, but you will never get rid of it, which means that it is still there to infect a fish. Just because you can't see the Ick doesn't mean it is not there.
This brings us to the second line of defense, which is the immune system of your fish. Once the first line of defense has been broken, you have no choice but to fall back on the immune system of your fish. Anything quarantining at this point would be almost useless at preventing Ick (except that you are not introducing new tomites). Fish breaking out with Ick is usually a sign that something is wrong with your system. I am a firm believer in the hard and ugly truth that the presence of an Ick outbreak means you're doing something wrong as a reefkeeper. A healthy, unstressed fish should be able to combat Ick with their own immune system. What do they do in the wild? Ick is present in the ocean. Of course, our systems are closed systems. In this sense, Ick serves as the canary in the coal mine, and is the first sign that conditions are not optimal. I think some fish are super sensitive, but an otherwise healthy system should not have Ick. Maintaining a triplicate system is very difficult, and proved impossible for me. I tried quarantining fish, but I add fish so slowly that it is hard to keep the quarantine system up and cycled. Moreover, surgeonfish and other active swimmers will do more harm to themselves from being confined from my experience.
I hope this helps on Ick,
Matt
The general consensus is that the freshwater dip is not entirely effective. Morevoer, unless done correctly, it can cause more harm to the fish than good.Stevie T. said:
Jim is correct.jimmyj7090 said:
There are two lines of defense against Ick.
The first line of defense is not to introduce Ick into your system at all. In order to do this, fish must be quarantined for a period of 6 weeks and everything else must be quarantined separately in an environment without fish for an identical period of 6 weeks. That means every fish that goes into the system must be quarantined, as well as every snail, hermit, coral, live rock, and invert in separate system. Thus, in order to quarantine effectively, you need three systems: 1) your main system, 2) a system for quarantining fish, and 3) a third system for quarantining inverts, corals, and live rock. The fish quarantine system needs to be an environment hostile to the Ick parasite. Hyposalinity and temperature can work very well. Bear in mind many fish respond poorly to copper, especially over the long term. The invert and coral quarantine system can be a regular system; it just cannot have fish. In order to have a successful first line of defense, you need to be practicing this technique from time zero. You can't simply adopt these measures (or some of these measures) once you've set your system up and introduce fish. There simply is no invert safe method to eradicate Ick from a system. Sure, you can treat it, but you will never get rid of it, which means that it is still there to infect a fish. Just because you can't see the Ick doesn't mean it is not there.
This brings us to the second line of defense, which is the immune system of your fish. Once the first line of defense has been broken, you have no choice but to fall back on the immune system of your fish. Anything quarantining at this point would be almost useless at preventing Ick (except that you are not introducing new tomites). Fish breaking out with Ick is usually a sign that something is wrong with your system. I am a firm believer in the hard and ugly truth that the presence of an Ick outbreak means you're doing something wrong as a reefkeeper. A healthy, unstressed fish should be able to combat Ick with their own immune system. What do they do in the wild? Ick is present in the ocean. Of course, our systems are closed systems. In this sense, Ick serves as the canary in the coal mine, and is the first sign that conditions are not optimal. I think some fish are super sensitive, but an otherwise healthy system should not have Ick. Maintaining a triplicate system is very difficult, and proved impossible for me. I tried quarantining fish, but I add fish so slowly that it is hard to keep the quarantine system up and cycled. Moreover, surgeonfish and other active swimmers will do more harm to themselves from being confined from my experience.
I hope this helps on Ick,
Matt
I set up a freshwater dip for my tank citizens after I had an ich outbreak. Water temp and pH was matched to tank. They DID NOT like it AT ALL. After even 3 minutes in the dip, they started to lose balance, swam sideways or looked way stressed. Hypo in a second tank and your display empty seems like the only way to go if you have a tank-wide breakout. It taught me a hard lesson in patience and to buy a freakin QT setup.
If I recall correctly a FW dip should be no longer than 1-2 min.
Awsome summary Matt. I can't even try to split a single hair on that one, you covered it.
IME, it can be worth it to do a full treatment or the 3 stage QT matt mentioned.
I had my tank established but introduced ICK with a new fish (that I did QT, but didn't have bright enough light on the QT to see the few visable spots until it went into the display). I did a full hypo / fallow display treatment. Since then (175 days) I have had a bunch of stressors but no Ick reappearance. It stinks to come home to a power outage, temp spike, ecxt, but it's a lot less stressful on me to not see an ick outbreak along with all the other concerns.
Also, if your tank is established, you don't really need 2 QT systems. If you want to add a fish you set the QT up for the fish, if you want to add a coral you set it up with that in mind. This requries a QT large enough for any fish you might want to add, and the ability to maintain water quaility for any coral you might want to add (lights, skimmer.....). This also means that anything you want to add to your display will need to be spaced out by 6 weeks per addition. Sounds rediculous, but the peice of mind is worth a lot. You can gamble, but gamblers always lose sooner or later.
Also, don't be afraid to post and ask, I often loan out equipment and I would expect that others would also. I have a 30G QT system and a 75G system that are both extras that I can loan out. I use them when I need them, right now my 30G tank is on loan and I will be using my 75G system myself soon, but If you need to borrow let me know, I can probabally get the 30G back soon.
Awsome summary Matt. I can't even try to split a single hair on that one, you covered it.
IME, it can be worth it to do a full treatment or the 3 stage QT matt mentioned.
I had my tank established but introduced ICK with a new fish (that I did QT, but didn't have bright enough light on the QT to see the few visable spots until it went into the display). I did a full hypo / fallow display treatment. Since then (175 days) I have had a bunch of stressors but no Ick reappearance. It stinks to come home to a power outage, temp spike, ecxt, but it's a lot less stressful on me to not see an ick outbreak along with all the other concerns.
Also, if your tank is established, you don't really need 2 QT systems. If you want to add a fish you set the QT up for the fish, if you want to add a coral you set it up with that in mind. This requries a QT large enough for any fish you might want to add, and the ability to maintain water quaility for any coral you might want to add (lights, skimmer.....). This also means that anything you want to add to your display will need to be spaced out by 6 weeks per addition. Sounds rediculous, but the peice of mind is worth a lot. You can gamble, but gamblers always lose sooner or later.
Also, don't be afraid to post and ask, I often loan out equipment and I would expect that others would also. I have a 30G QT system and a 75G system that are both extras that I can loan out. I use them when I need them, right now my 30G tank is on loan and I will be using my 75G system myself soon, but If you need to borrow let me know, I can probabally get the 30G back soon.
naturebatslast
Senior Toad Licker
Excellent responses by Matt and Jimmy!
zemuron114
Non-member
If the temp fluctuates more then +- 4 degrees it causes enough of a stress for healthy fish to show ich. This, IMO, is the main cause of ICH in any established system. Are you fluctuating at all? My male bluethroat broke out when i first got him, i just kept params in check and temp stable, fed some garlic, and it went away in no time.
dave601m
Non-member
When I had my ich outbreak, I did 5 min freshwater dips on my fish, and the ich didn't drop off instantly, but within a day or two it just fell right off the fish. Don't know if you'll get the same JayM, but mine seemed to work very very well, just took a day for it to fall off.
flavescens
I love my ocean.
Anyone want to know how my ick situation worked out? Last night I tore down my 40 display (live rock and inverts in a bucket with heater and powerhead) and removed the fish and the sand. I saved 99% of the water, though used some for the live rock bucket, and drip acclimated the fish into the re-filled 40 as a quaranteen system and added cupramine. I just got KAS' 55 tank with the closed loop system to set up and start cycling Saturday and Sunday, so I figured that the time frames would basically work out between the cycle and the end of the cupramine treatment, and hopefully everything would turn out ok.
But then this morning I got home from my gf's before work to feed the fish and the tang, the coral beauty, the hawkfish, one of two clowns and on of three chromis are dead! I am devistated and confused and I have no idea what went wrong. I do know that we checked twice about the amount of the cupramine we put in so I know we did that right. Who knows... Maybe it was the shock, but with so many dying, I think it was something I may have done. Anyway, I am going to investigate tonight when I am done crying and will write more later.
But then this morning I got home from my gf's before work to feed the fish and the tang, the coral beauty, the hawkfish, one of two clowns and on of three chromis are dead! I am devistated and confused and I have no idea what went wrong. I do know that we checked twice about the amount of the cupramine we put in so I know we did that right. Who knows... Maybe it was the shock, but with so many dying, I think it was something I may have done. Anyway, I am going to investigate tonight when I am done crying and will write more later.
naturebatslast
Senior Toad Licker
"If the temp fluctuates more then +- 4 degrees it causes enough of a stress for healthy fish to show ich."
IMO, I think its more of a constant dramatic temp fluctuations in addition with a water parameter problem which is an increase in stress. My tank is anywhere between 77, lights off in the morning, and 82, lights on at the end of the photoperiod.
IMO, I think its more of a constant dramatic temp fluctuations in addition with a water parameter problem which is an increase in stress. My tank is anywhere between 77, lights off in the morning, and 82, lights on at the end of the photoperiod.
Andy O
Non-member
flavescens said:
Sorry to hear that. Besides dosing according to the directions did you test using a copper kit and if so, was it a kit appropriate for the type of copper that you were using. Also, could it be possible that the copper had a fatal interaction withsomething else that was present within your system.
Matt L.
Non-member
The copper dosage probably was correct and copper would not have had a detrimental interaction with anything present in the water.flavescens said:
Copper is lethal to invertebrates, and toxic to fish. Certain fish are much more sensitive to copper than others, but from my past experience with copper, only the hardiest of fish can tolerate it.
Surgeonfish and angel fish are extremely sensitive, and will often be adversely affected by even the recommended dosage.
Moreover, the fish were under extreme stress from being moved. When fish are stressed, they are especially in need of high oxygen water. Disturbing a tank can spur microorganisms to consume kicked up sediment, thereby depleting oxygen.
Add to this the fact that there probably was an ammonia spike, if not from the tearing down/reassembling, then certainly from the removal of the live rock.
Add together all of these factors (stress, disturbed system, ammonia, copper, depleted oxygen), and it is actually a wonder any of the fish survived
Sorry.Next time, if you need to set up a treatment tank for Ich, do the following:
Make sure the tank is cycled and established, and at least 6 months old. I suggest keeping a fish present in the system just to keep the waste loading fairly constant. You may use live rock and sand. Then add your infected fish, and again wait a few weeks for the system to reequilibrate. In theory, you could keep adding additional fish, waiting between each addition. When the system has equilibrated after the last fish addition, pull the inverts (snails and crabs), and begin loweirng the salinity slowly over the course of several weeks. As the salinity lowers, there will be die off of certain organisms, but with a skimmer and patience, your system will process their waste. Reach your target hyposalinity, and keep the system there for 6 weeks. Then, so the fish don't go into shock, start raising the salinity back up over the same number of weeks. The fish are now clean and free of Ick. Plus, they haven't suffered fatal liver damage from copper and without copper being present, the system is free to return to use as a reef.
As you can see, it is possible that quarentining and treating all of your fish would require up to 24 weeks with an established tank
, not 24 hours. There is no faster way (or even other way!).I lost fish the same way years ago
I'm sorry this had to happen, and I wish I had seen or known of your plans in advance for I would certainly have tried to convince you to take an alternate course of action.Matt
zemuron114
Non-member
sorry its +/- 4 degrees within a short period of time. 
Firedancer718
no special title
I'm very sorry to hear of the outcome.
MarkO
...
As Matt mentions, Copper is toxic to fish. I think the addition of copper and the additional stress on already sick fish is what did them in.
This is why I recommended hypo.
If it happened to me again, I'd take the tank water from the main display and a few pieces of LR (pieces you could do without). Then add the fish (keeping the lights dim). Do not feed for a few days as it would only add waste. Probably go 24 hours at normal density, then slowly drip RO/DI over about 3 or 4 days down to 1.009 This worked for me before.
This is why I recommended hypo.
If it happened to me again, I'd take the tank water from the main display and a few pieces of LR (pieces you could do without). Then add the fish (keeping the lights dim). Do not feed for a few days as it would only add waste. Probably go 24 hours at normal density, then slowly drip RO/DI over about 3 or 4 days down to 1.009 This worked for me before.
