Why dont we use scientific names for our corals?

[JohnK]

I agree with Greg, all other issues aside, the designer name craze has effectively de-valued pretty much every common, hardy coral's value quite a bit. No one makes anyone buy the designer names, but the names make it a lot less desirable to keep a thriving tank full of brown and green corals vs a tank full of fantiastically expensive, pretty looking corals that are not very hardy or fast growing. IMO the trend is not doing the conservation side of the hobby much good.

Also there is the money / greed thing. The club (or rather the entire hobby) has grown tremendously, yet I see fewer and fewer free frags and such. IMO/IME every year that goes by I feel like this hobby is more of a buisness and less of a mutual effort to be successful growing cool stuff for the sake of knowledge and conservation.

I will say that big $ names do in some cases encourage propogation of some particularly cool looking livestock, so I guess that's a good thing.

BTW, does anyone still have the famous "dog poop brown acro" that used to circulate so much? Now that was a cool coral

 

[Andy V]

I guess I just disagree with the premise that people are buying corals because they are expensive and have a designer name. It doesn't make any sense and in fact it's the other way around...the expensive ones tend to be more colorful and desirable, and in combination with less supply gives you an expensive coral. My guess is that in a few years, most of these corals will not be commanding such a premium, as they are propagated by enthusiasts and the supply is increased.

The other thing I would add to the comments about slow-growing corals, is that most of them grow slowly because we do not know how (or just don't) provide the proper environment for them. I am going to try to find the link, but some researchers in San Diego (I believe) have shown exponential increases in the growth rate of corals, including so called slow-growers, by dosing huge amounts of phytoplankton, zooplankton, etc. around the clock. They argued that because of our desire to have low phosphates, we do not feed anywhere close to the amount of food in the real ocean. In fact, the vast majority of coral growth does not come from photosynthesis, it comes from regular feeding.

Our lack of knowledge (or desire to feed little to nothing) is what makes many of these corals slow-growers. In that respect I think getting these into the hands of hobbyists will only contribute to the knowledge base of the hobby.

 

[kevinpratt823]

Quote: "Our charter is to educate people about corals reefs and do so while trying to preserve the reefs."

I started out with a Leather(sorry, Sacrophyton) and frogspawn(sorry, euphylia, and I still have it) some years ago and things took off from there.
I know for me personally, my interest in collecting a great variety of very diverse attractive corals, regaurdless of name, has been one of the sole driving factors in educating myself about the reefs, as well as preserving them and propogating the corals in captivity.

Part of the topic of discussion has been shaped by the huge strides that science and the hobby have made in the past years in understanding these animals and thier needs, thus opening the doors to a much greater variety of corals in the hobby, allowing us a CHOICE other than the "meat and potatoes corals".
If I took the time to make a nice garden in front of my house, I certainly wouldn't be satisfied planting Dandelion seeds in it, just because they're hardy.

 

[Ruge13]

I had a reef tank 2 years ago... then you saw things like Rose Millis sold all over. They were cheap.

Now flash forward 2 years. Now I jump online because I am getting back in. Hadn't touched a reef forum in 2 years. I now see Rose Milis selling for 3 - 4X the cost under a new name. I found it funny, and that scenario is repeated over a LOT of corals. Guess what, put it under a certain light and its a friggin Rose Mili. Get over it.

The ones that crack me up the most are Zoos. You take 1 polyp and move it from a 10K bulb to a 20K bulb, or toss an actinic over it vs. a PC light or T5 and is it the same? Of course it is.. but then you see everyone and thier brother giving it a different name because it looks different. For example, I have some tubs blues. Been around a long time. I have another colony of Tubs blues that soemone had in a tank that crashed where the light stuck on for 2 weeks and bleached the crap out of everything. Those tubs blues have now opened back up under a 250W 14K Oshio Bulb and they are a bright irridescent aqua marine color, one I have never seen before. They seem healthy and are growing and popping off new polyps, that have the same altered color as a result of the original stress.

I could sell them as $5 tubs blues frags... or.... given that its 2011 now and its fashionable to be pricey and have my own name I'll let you get a "Ruge Limited edition (LE) Super Colored Aquamarine Mutation zoa". (L.E. S.C.A.M. for short, its french, google it). They are $50 per polyp while supplies last. You can find me on Ebay.

I agree with you all, if I like it I buy it. Could not care less if Tyree owned it, if its a Limited Edition (that everyone has) or ORA has touched it with thier golden fingers. I don't care if the Pope himself mixed the salt with holy water. If it doesn't look nice in my tank I don't want it. Some of my favorite corals are montis and Digis. They grow fast and look nice.

I do get a kick out of some of the international forums where members corals pop up. Every once in a while you see a Hiller Blueberry Acro pop up in another country. I saw in a store in Viaregio Italy not too long ago a member coral. Cracked me up. Except there, they were selling a colony for 40 EUR that would have sold for $500 in the US.

 

[kevinpratt823]

Quote:"You see less and less tank packed with large colonies and more and more frag tanks as displays."
Unfortunately, many of the ones with tanks packed with large colonies broke down due to the economy/other issues, but a lot of them started those colonies from frags. I recall somebody explaining to me before that the BRS philosophy encourages people to GROW OUT a successful reef, rather than just stuffing a tank with colonies, but not everybody has the means to keep a seperate frag tank.

 

[JasonandRay]

I didnt mean to open a 2 page debate, just ask a simple question, that only needed a simple awnser. I know you all have your own opinion, thats cool. My question has been answered. Dont kill each other, where all basically try to do the same thing here.

 

[kevinpratt823]

I didnt mean to open a 2 page debate, just ask a simple question, that only needed a simple awnser. I know you all have your own opinion, thats cool. My question has been answered. Dont kill each other, where all basically try to do the same thing here.

Some of us enjoy a discussion about something that we are passionate about, I don't think it's a bad thing, it shows that we care about the hobby. The debates are all in good fun.

 

[delta]

Quote:"You see less and less tank packed with large colonies and more and more frag tanks as displays."
Unfortunately, many of the ones with tanks packed with large colonies broke down due to the economy/other issues, but a lot of them started those colonies from frags. I recall somebody explaining to me before that the BRS philosophy encourages people to GROW OUT a successful reef, rather than just stuffing a tank with colonies, but not everybody has the means to keep a seperate frag tank.

Yes that is the philosophy, but it is not happening. The problem is not many are getting there they are buying and selling off to get new stuff or getting out of the hobby.

Yes the economy has done it's damage even more reason the desire for new corals hurts the hobby in the long run.

Taking more corals out of the ocean and growing them out as frag is a problem now more than ever. If it were done in a responsible manner it wouldn't be a problem. But that has not been the case for most of the time the reef hobby has been around. The more we tax the supply from the ocean the more endangered the hobby becomes. We are a few signature away from not having a hobby. It has lurked for year now, the legislation has been proposed & it isn't an "if", it is a "when".

Don't get me wrong, I really do not have anything against designer corals. I just don't seek them out, my issue is the stability of the hobby and that is not there. This could all go up in smoke overnight.

The question is at what point do we as hobbyist take some initiative and support the efforts to preserve the reefs? How many different corals do we really need?

There are a ton out there already being aqua cultured. And yes there are a tons of designer corals being aqua cultured.

 

[delta]

Some of us enjoy a discussion about something that we are passionate about, I don't think it's a bad thing, it shows that we care about the hobby. The debates are all in good fun.

Good discussion, gets the reefing blood flowing

 

[kevinpratt823]

One thing I certainly agree with, Greg, is that yes, there is more than enough variety already in the hobby being cultured. It bothers me when I see certain sites bringing in boatloads of wild chalice(or whatever else)colonies, hoping to get the next "big" one, when maybe 1 in 100 of them at best, is anything remotely different than what we have already. It's a shame.

 

[jamesdong009]

One thing I certainly agree with, Greg, is that yes, there is more than enough variety already in the hobby being cultured. It bothers me when I see certain sites bringing in boatloads of wild chalice(or whatever else)colonies, hoping to get the next "big" one, when maybe 1 in 100 of them at best, is anything remotely different than what we have already. It's a shame.

Totally agree with this. They're almost like a chop shop. They bring in wild colonies, hope no one else has it, chop it up, and make big bucks.

 

[Liam]

Obviously there is not really one correct answer here ,all we can do is state our opinions and try to explain why we feel the way we do,each to their own.
The clubs charter can be interpreted in many ways also. From my own perspective i view part of the charter is to encourage responsible and successful reefkeeping. I personally like my tanks to be as healthy as possible and as attractive to the eye as possible. It is a fact that generally speaking designer corals are sought after for their beauty which is typically something above the ordinary,therefore having a tankful of the most beautiful corals that appeal to me and look impressive to others is satisfying to me and is my own interpretation of successful reefkeeping. I certainly don't see the designer coral issue as being a sad change of direction for the club,i do however agree that there does seem to be a lot of "frag fraggers" these days which i do not care for.

Advances within the hobby enable us to have greater success compared to 10 years ago when most corals where brown due to tanks loaded with nutrients,nowadays folks can successfully maintain the bright colors of various corals this in itself is a factor for the desire to collect so many different corals compared to 10 years ago.

I have definitely noticed that alot of the old timers sadly have gone by the wayside recently,one of the reasons i broke down in fact.
I am hoping to set up a small tank and get back into the hobby if i can find the time.

Think of it this way,in every aspect of life there are " the good old days" times change,we have to adapt,move with the times and try to make the most of each day as it comes.

With that being said and getting back to the OP question,there are very few people in the world that can accurately iD coral to subspecies level and there are other experts that believe the taxonomy devised by Veron is not an accurate representation anyway.
All we can do is use whichever method we can to represent each coral as honestly as possible.

 

[JohnK]

I'm not much of a fan of the designer name thing, but I do have to respect the fact that once something that really is special in appearance (or for other reasons) gets established in the hobby with a recognized name - that coral does tend to see a LOT of captive propagation and gets spread around a lot. IMO this is good for conservation because that particular coral ends up in hundreds of tanks, and it reduces demand for wild collected corals because everyone just must have the "Tyree bright green booger acro" even if it's 10x the price of an average wild coral.

Maybe I just miss the days of endlessly hunting for something special, insted of just paying for something special. Kind of like finding a classic corvette under a tarp in a barn vs. buying the same car at a high end auction.

 

[Liam]

Maybe I just miss the days of endlessly hunting for something special, insted of just paying for something special. Kind of like finding a classic corvette under a tarp in a barn vs. buying the same car at a high end auction.

I too used too enjoy this,but we have to look far outside the club at the advances in mariculture and aquaculture that put a dampner on this pastime.
Vendors simply don't like to take the risk on transhipping wild colonies with low survival rates compared to bringing in mass aquacultured corals for cheap money higher survival rates and profit margins.

 

[JohnK]

That's a good point. Not all knowledge is local, and we don't get to go cherry picking in LA looking for that "corvette under a tarp" that I was talking about

 

[Liam]

That's a good point. Not all knowledge is local, and we don't get to go cherry picking in LA looking for that "corvette under a tarp" that I was talking about

I guess my last comment should be directed mainly to sps,it does seem wild lps are being brought in and chopped up with abandon.

John it sure would be handy to live in LA,instead of getting the table scraps for $$$ here on the east coast

 

[JohnK]

I totally agree, SPS chop shopping is terrible.
Trading frags from established corals is a lot different from chop shopping freshly imported acros (that won't hold colors or growth patterns).

 

[JasonandRay]

dont get me wrong there are some amazing desinger corals. and i think liam got it right

Obviously there is not really one correct answer here ,all we can do is state our opinions and try to explain why we feel the way we do,each to their own.

 

[Greg Hiller]

>The biggest thing is has done is killed the stock pile of meat and potato corals the BRS had. Many of the hardy corals we had an abundance of are no longer around. <

Name one. Over the years I've only lost a handful of corals completely (meaning I no longer even have a small frag). I think if you put the word out that you are looking for X or Y, and enough people in the club hear it, someone still has a piece of just about everything. I think we've been an incredibly successful group and some folks have HUGE colonies of the common stuff...or by default it is common due to the size of the colony in their tank.

I'll also reiterate what John said earlier in this thread. Many corals are very hard to id to species (particularly Acropora), and some species can have dozens of color morphs, so you have to come up with something to use to indicate what you are talking about.

Also, in the FWIW category, I think sometimes people think back to the 'good 'ol days' with rose colored glasses. I can never remember a time when there were more people giving away corals on the BRS forum than today.

 

[NeverlosT]

I agree, I think it is hard to keep up with all of the fancy names, but hey, I don't know (nor can I pronounce) most of the scientific names, so the "common name" helps me tell what I should expect from a piece, be it Lime in the sky Acro, Mummy Eye Chalice, or the dog poo brown acro! It is lame when people jack the price just because they threw "LE" on the name, but hey, it is your money, if you dont support the price jump, dont buy it!

I also agree that once one is established in reefing, and can keep most corals with confidence, the attraction to more "difficult" and more colorful morphs of a coral grows, which leads to a tank full of amazing colors. I dont see anything wrong with that. I personally started with a tank full of Idaho Grape and Tri-Color acros. Well, then I discovered the world of SPS like "Raspberry Limade", "Strawberry Shortcake", the world of amazing chalices, and the possible colors of acans and zooas etc. and the WOW factor associated with all of them and I wanted them. Not because of their fancy names or their pricetags, but because they have those names/prices for a reason a lot of the time, they are gorgeous!

Now, I still have penty of Idaho Grape (cant kill the stuff!) and tricolors (ditto!), and ask anyone who has "shopped" at my house, they leave with free frags a-plenty, but for my 90g Display tank chunk of the ocean, I only have room for what I consider to be the best and the brightest, and part of the allure to visit others tanks is to see what THEY consider to be their best and brightest.