A little Reality check...Being cheap doesn't help anyone
- Thread starter smcnally
- Start date
Salty Dog
Non-member
I guess it really comes down to a simple phrase - Caveat Emptor. It's like any other buy-sell transaction. The markets for things change, and the value of those items change - not unlike the stock market.
If you start selling your boat at the end of September, you aren't going to get anything near what you would get if you started selling it in say - April. Yes, you might get lucky (there is an a** for every seat, as used car dealers say) - but most likely you will take a hit because the perceived value (buyer) is lower because of the time of year that you are selling. If it's a powerboat, add in fuel costs to that equation, too...
Also, if you paid too much (measured by the value that an average person could find a similar commodity for with reasonable effort), then you need to realize that you overpaid for a commodity (i.e. the Mag 7), and own up to the fact that you overpaid. Again, you might find a sucker (an a** for every seat), but it's tougher.
I don't think I'm telling anyone anything they don't already know, but it's good to reflect on these things from time to time so no one feels as though they are getting screwed because they don't get offered what they feel the item is worth. Often times that is a perceived value (on the sellers end) that is not based upon the reality of the situation. If they sit back and consider all the factors, it begins to make sense, regardless of how unfortunate the reality may be.
Have we beaten this horse enough yet?
If you start selling your boat at the end of September, you aren't going to get anything near what you would get if you started selling it in say - April. Yes, you might get lucky (there is an a** for every seat, as used car dealers say) - but most likely you will take a hit because the perceived value (buyer) is lower because of the time of year that you are selling. If it's a powerboat, add in fuel costs to that equation, too...
Also, if you paid too much (measured by the value that an average person could find a similar commodity for with reasonable effort), then you need to realize that you overpaid for a commodity (i.e. the Mag 7), and own up to the fact that you overpaid. Again, you might find a sucker (an a** for every seat), but it's tougher.
I don't think I'm telling anyone anything they don't already know, but it's good to reflect on these things from time to time so no one feels as though they are getting screwed because they don't get offered what they feel the item is worth. Often times that is a perceived value (on the sellers end) that is not based upon the reality of the situation. If they sit back and consider all the factors, it begins to make sense, regardless of how unfortunate the reality may be.
Have we beaten this horse enough yet?
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nitrofish
reefing again!
oh well, guess its time to smash that pump with a hammer now right. let me know how that goes.
Going back to the original topic....
Gee, isn't it ironic?
The hobby thrives, people begin to be successful with previously "very delicate" sp. Soon those "rare" and "advanced" corals become commonplace and supply and demand dictate that their value drops to virtually nothing....
What was it, 10-15 yrs ago that the common wisdon was that SPS couldn't be kept in captivity? Now you can't even give away some montis......
Seems like a viscious cycle to me. By the reefing community becoming increasingly sucessful in keeping and propogating corals, the value of those corals will inevitibly drop. In the big picture, we're pretty much forced to buy high and sell low.
What to do about it? I have no idea....
Gee, isn't it ironic?
The hobby thrives, people begin to be successful with previously "very delicate" sp. Soon those "rare" and "advanced" corals become commonplace and supply and demand dictate that their value drops to virtually nothing....
What was it, 10-15 yrs ago that the common wisdon was that SPS couldn't be kept in captivity? Now you can't even give away some montis......
Seems like a viscious cycle to me. By the reefing community becoming increasingly sucessful in keeping and propogating corals, the value of those corals will inevitibly drop. In the big picture, we're pretty much forced to buy high and sell low.
What to do about it? I have no idea....
NateHanson
Non-member
I think you're right. In the long term, this is the nature of this hobby. But it's not much different in any other hobby, or house-furnishing. Use your ski equipment for 2 years and then try to sell it. You might get 20%! How about all the perrenials you buy to landscape and beautify your house? You don't expect to sell them for anything, nor could you.
The problem is that some people for whatever reason view reefkeeping as part hobby, part investment. They sometimes feel ripped off when they can't get $20 for the frags that they grew out from an original $50 frag. I certainly had some of that attitude when I was in the hobby. I'm not sure why people view this hobby differently than other hobbies/passtimes. Every other recreational activity is EXPECTED to cost money. But reefkeeping sometimes gives people the impressions that they should be able to recoup the running costs through frag sales.
Greg Hiller
BRS Moderator
It's funny, at the current rate of success there may come a point when it's more expensive for a shop to import wild corals from the reef than pick up overgrowth from hobbyists. When that day comes it will be a good one (assuming of course that the greenhouse gasses emitted when we use the electricity to run our tanks are less than those emitted when the corals are imported ).
).
Bobbofin
Non-member
Another thing consider is that the brick and mortar, mom and pop LFS are gonig out of business very quickly. Ecommerce, Petco and PetSmart are putting them out of business. As hobbyist we can't expect them to stay in business if we buy everything from Marine Depot, Petco and PetSmart and only buy random livestock and speciality items from them. In a conversation with a local LFS owner he told me that if his wife didn't have a good consulting job he could not survive on what he makes at the store. Also mail order/internet livestock companies get to cherry pick a lot of the shipments that come into LAX (LA Airport) so the top 25% of the premium stuff is online and not at your LFS. Another shop manager states the the problem is far deeper. Importers, distributors and online companies are now teaming up, further hurting the ability of shop onwers to compete. Then we come to Central Garden and Pet who has been buying up aquatics companies left and right and cater more to Ecommerce, Petco and PetSmart than the LFS. Ecommerce, Petco and PetSmart can buy 500 AquaClear filters and make $3.00 a each profit on them, the LFS has to make 30-40% just to survive. There's an article by outgoing president of the ADMA on their website that describes this situation in great detail. Here's the link >> http://www.amdareef.com/ I recommend everyone read it. It will shine light on the commercial state of our hobby. My general rule of thumb about buying mail order is this: If a mail order item costs $100 + 10 shipping, $110.00 total, I am willing to pay 25% more or $137.50 to purchase it from a LFS to keep them in business so they'll be there in time of emergency, and be a place to look at the live stock I am buying. I have purchased stuff online and I admit it but about 80% of the stuff I have has come from a LFS. Recently I bought SeaChem 1000g amounts of Advantage Calcium, Magnesium, Reef Builder and Sea Gel. Why? Because at the LFS they would cost over $100 and with shipping it was only $55 from Marine Depot hence the 25% rule of thumb I go by.
I used to build and run radio control airplanes, boats and cars. This also is a very expensive hobby, so much so that I had to choose between that and the reef hobby. I see the same thing happening to this hobby that occured in the r/c hobby. Great Planes Inc has bought up a lot of the distrbutors, manufactorers and undercut the local hobby stores via their www.towerhobbies.com website. They also supply these very hobby stores as a distributor as they stab them in the back. What has been the result? About 75% of the r/c hobby stores have gone out of business. Is that the future of our hobby also?
I used to build and run radio control airplanes, boats and cars. This also is a very expensive hobby, so much so that I had to choose between that and the reef hobby. I see the same thing happening to this hobby that occured in the r/c hobby. Great Planes Inc has bought up a lot of the distrbutors, manufactorers and undercut the local hobby stores via their www.towerhobbies.com website. They also supply these very hobby stores as a distributor as they stab them in the back. What has been the result? About 75% of the r/c hobby stores have gone out of business. Is that the future of our hobby also?
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Behrmon
pr (BearMon)
Bobbofin - well said. Even though it may be off the original topic I can't agree more. I'm proud to support my LFS & will continue to pay a bit more to keep them around. It would be great to see some more of these group buys go thru our sponsor stores - so what if it's a bit more - just my opinion.
dz6t
Acro Garden, BRS Sponsor
That will be nice if that day actually comes.
I think in order to get to that point, every major citis should have a reefing society like BRS.
I specifically shop at sponsors. I'll drive over an hour to CRA, nearly an hour to Skipton's, 40 minutes to Beacon, and TI is an occasional stop as well.
I will continue to do it too.......
As an FYI, the one I have spent the most at is the one that has provided the best SERVICE. As long as they're close on price, it's WAY worth it (at least to me)
I will continue to do it too.......
As an FYI, the one I have spent the most at is the one that has provided the best SERVICE. As long as they're close on price, it's WAY worth it (at least to me)
RichConley
Attack of the Killer Cute
Theres an interesting piece of economics here: If no one is willing to buy your product, then your price isnt reasonable, no matter how low it is. It really doesnt matter what you paid for it.
I see stores trying to sell green digi for $40 a frag, and they wonder why they can't sell it? If they dropped the price to reasonable levels, they'd sell much more of it, and they'd be able to get it for almost free from hobbiests.
richardong
Non-member
I don't think its completely true of whether how to judge a price reasonable or not. We all know in this club one can easily get xenia for free, but often i saw people paying $40+ for a xenia frag at LFS. WHY? Its because BRS members are nice enough to share an easy to grow coral to new members. But a lot of reefers not knowing this club have to pay a good price for what so call in BRS "cheap" coral. I don't think you can find a sunset monti for free still, but someday maybe.
BTW, i am looking for more acan lord, any freebies ?
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richardong
Non-member
RichConley
Attack of the Killer Cute
I don't think its completely true of whether how to judge a price reasonable or not. We all know in this club one can easily get xenia for free, but often i saw people paying $40+ for a xenia frag at LFS. WHY? Its because BRS members are nice enough to share an easy to grow coral to new members. But a lot of reefers not knowing this club have to pay a good price for what so call in BRS "cheap" coral. I don't think you can find a sunset monti for free still, but someday maybe.
BTW, i am looking for more acan lord, any freebies ?
Thats a classic example of monopoly. Essentially, the LFS have an artificial monopoly on newbies, because information is limited, and the LFS withhold information. They can charge whatever the heck they want.
Saying that $40 is reasonable for xenia is the same as saying $9 is reasonable for a beer at fenway. The market is artificially constrained.
Its got nothing to do with BRS members being nice, and everything to do with the fact that the stuff isnt worth anything. There are people in this club who throw out trashbags full of xenia every month.
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