Amino Acids, let's try again

[jango]

Oh it's in the mag, I can't get on RC right now .

Check the sps forum on RC there's some pretty good reef keepers using AA's and noticing improved growth and color.

I could pee in my tank say it has improved the growth and color would you try that ..

The same thing happened with vodka dosing everyone said it worked and was showing improvement in there tank until it was debunked and now you don't really hear anything about it...

Nate we as hobbiest are not the only one's who would benefit from this...

 

[Greg Hiller]

>first amino acids are not salt water soluable or stable<

Not sure I agree with this. Other than glutamine I don't know why they would be unstable. They might not be particularly soluble at seawater pH, but you can prep supplements at high concentrations at high or low pH (as mentioned by another poster) and then add them to your tank. They will not in general fall out of solution as long as they are added to the tank water and therefore diluted.

 

[One Eye]

I could pee in my tank say it has improved the growth and color would you try that ..

/QUOTE]

Sure!! I'll pee in your tank

Greg, the dfaa's mentioned as useful are glycerol (glycerine) , methionine, cysteine and a derivitive of the breakdown of methionine and cysteine, taurine

synchiropi, the phosphate is not supplied by dfaa's but the dfaa's assist in the zooxanthellea's photoshythesizing organic phosphate's (protein, sugar) for consumption by the coral

 

[synchiropi]

> And pyrrolidine carboxylic acid...but let's not be nitpicky! <

I was holding back...

> Yes, but when oxidized it forms cystine (basically just two cysteine molecules stuck together) <

I was talking more about the hydrolysis of the sulfur molecule, releasing some form of oxidized sulfur. Yup, they will form cystine if another cysteine is readily available, but what would happen to a free cysteine in seawater?

>The dipeptide form is used in mammalian cell culture <

Yup. Tried it. Not impressed. But I would imagine some corals would prefer importing peptides, rather than free a.a. Just a guess.

> the phosphate is not supplied by dfaa's but the dfaa's assist in the zooxanthellea's photoshythesizing <

That is very interesting. Yeah, i read also about taurine. I guess its involved in phosphorylation, as this reference says:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7731061&dopt=Abstract

> are glycerol (glycerine)

glycerol (glycerine) is not an a.a. (its does not contain any nitrogens, its a highly substituted alcohol. Are you talking about the a.a. glycine? Maybe they added glycerol, I am just saying that glycerol is not an a.a....



I think a good idea would be to analyze one of those a.a. supplements. We have a machine that can test for free glutamine and glutamate, plus Ca+ and K+. We could run a sample, just for curiosity. But it would not be able to identify those a.a. if in a peptide.

Geez, now i am thinking of analyzing a sample from my tank...

 

[Greg Hiller]

>We have a machine that can test for free glutamine and glutamate, plus Ca+ and K+. <

Gee...would that be a Nova?

My buddies at work found they (not me mind you ) could test for Ca+ on the Nova if they diluted their samples a bit, but now we got a fancier NOVA and it won't do calcium anymore.

 

[me2003]

This is my understanding of they relationship.
zooxanthellea create glucose,glycerine,organic phosphates, and amino acids.
For example alanine and glycine (pg 321 The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium)
They use nitrates and phosphates to create them. These are absorbed by
the coral cells.

This is pure guessing
By adding sugar and amino acids you feed the coral cells directly and the
zooxanthellea will store energy until they are needed.
This is a over simplification and I would have several
interesting questions for example
If the coral needs less zooxanthellea than will it trigger a mechanism
to lower the number?
What happens if you stop?
If there was enough sugar and amino acids in the water why would corals need
zooxanthellea ?

 

[Matt L.]

Not sure I agree with this. Other than glutamine I don't know why they would be unstable. They might not be particularly soluble at seawater pH, but you can prep supplements at high concentrations at high or low pH (as mentioned by another poster) and then add them to your tank. They will not in general fall out of solution as long as they are added to the tank water and therefore diluted.

I have to agree with Greg on this. While already making it clear that I smell snake oil here from a mile away, amino acids are water soluble, at least in low concentrations.

I'm always dissolving glycine in physiological saline solutions.

Unlike proteins which can be denatured, the mild pH values of our tank have no affect on a free amino acid.

So I'm going to have to conclude that the amino acids that are added do at least make it to the water column.

If they persist in the watyer column long enough to reach your corals and then can be taken up by the corals is another matter...

Matt

 

[Matt L.]

...The same thing happened with vodka dosing everyone said it worked and was showing improvement in there tank until it was debunked...

Thank you. Thank you very much

When I first read this thread on amino acids, the first thought that came to mid was the vodka dosing.

Amino acid dosing and vodka dosing both share an important similarity: they involve advocatingg the addition of a substrate to your tank water in order to improve the metabolism of a target organism in the tank water, based on a scientific theory, but with no supporting data.

Sure some dentrifying microbes can use ethanol. But does the ethanol even reach the microorganisms? Are the microorganisms even substrate limitted? Will the microorganisms use the ethanol? Et cetera...

Likewise, with amino acids, the same questions arise: Do the amino acids reach the corals? Or are the biodegraded before they even make it to the coral tissue? Can the amino acids be taken up by the corals in significant quantities from tank water? Do the corals really even need amino acid supplementation in our tanks? Or are the already all set? How does the amino acid concentration of our tank compare to that of natural reef waters? There are 20 naturally occuring amino acids. Do the corals need all 20? Do they needs just one?

Matt

 

[One Eye]

me 2003, The coral is not absorbing the dfaa and using it directly. The zooxanthellea are createing a greater amount of glycerol/glycerine which is then used by the coral.
If glycerol is alcohol then that's the answer to coral coloration...they get rosy red cheeks when they're loaded. Polyp extension is really a gin blossum.

Matt, Like I said above, the study showed that the corals were in fact absorbing the dfaa's.

The simularities I see between the article (of which dfaa's is a very small part) and the arguments I've seen on RC lead me to believe that at least some of the dfaa's are getting to the corals.

Doing a google search I found several links that mention dfaa's in coral skeletons matching dfaa's in the water of that region.

I've only been able to find 1 producer of AA solutions-Salifert- that has any description of the AA's in thier product and all it says is that there's good and bad AA's and all they use are the good one's.....go figure

 

[One Eye]

Matt, I was typing while your last post was posted.
I've already mentioned, a couple times, that NO not ALL 20 AA's are needed....Read the post above, it's there. Even easier, read the article, named in the above posts,in Coral magazine...all 6 issues (though not all 6 deal with dfaa's) read the post on RC about going to bare bottom tanks and phosphate removal. Read the post about AA supplementation. See for yourself if these post are written by the guys that are peeing vodka into their coral of the month filled tanks, while asking why their $1000 acan lord is dieing, or if these post are from reefkeepers who've been around for a while and have gained a little respect in the community.

 

[me2003]

I am doubtful that Amino Acid addition works, but was trying to describe a possible mechanism. Vodka dosing, sugar, yeast, and other products have been fads in the past. I would like to know both the theory and the additives. For instance,
various chemical additions have some interesting science. It is my belief that
DT's falls into your Vodka dosing catagory

 

[synchiropi]

> If glycerol is alcohol then that's the answer to coral coloration...they get rosy red cheeks when they're loaded. Polyp extension is really a gin blossum. <

Haha... and now the conversation starts deteriorating...

> Gee...would that be a Nova? <

Hehe, what would make you think that? --> of course!!

> but now we got a fancier NOVA and it won't do calcium anymore <

Darn! YOU are right! The newer NOVA does not measure Ca+2 (like 2 hrs ago, somebody just asked me how to prepare the older one for retirement, I am not kidding!)

Mmhh.. I see the sign of mammalian cell culture process development here...

I vote for sending some natural sea water for a.a. analysis... I will cooperate with $10.00 LOL

 

[Matt L.]

Guilty until Proven Innocent & Cold Fusion

1i,

Matt, I was typing while your last post was posted.

Jinx

I've already mentioned, a couple times, that NO not ALL 20 AA's are needed....Read the post above, it's there.

Okay, I see it. My bad.

Even easier, read the article, named in the above posts,in Coral magazine...all 6 issues (though not all 6 deal with dfaa's)

Do you have a link? Maybe I'm being a total e-tard today, but I can't find it.

...read the post on RC about going to bare bottom tanks and phosphate removal.

I've made a pact to stay away from RC. I think this post on amino acids relates very well to what I perceive the problems to be on RC, and even though the first thread got closed, it shows why we are better than RC, in my opinion.

Now don't get me wrong. RC was there for me (and for all of us), and I still do consider it a valuable resource, but I believe that the RC Echo Chamber is where a lot of these speculations such as vodka dosing grow legs, so to say. Speculation becomes theory, and theory then becomes fact. We go from: "I think adding some AAs to my tank could help" (speculation) to "Adding AAs to my tank improved coral growth" (theory, not observation) to "Adding AAs to my tank helps corals" (fact)

1i, I'm not saying that adding AAs won't help your tank, and I never said it would hurt (I don't see how it would unless the AA dose were really high). I only said that I am highly suspicious. And suspicions can be proven wrong.

...See for yourself if these post are written by the guys that are peeing vodka into their coral of the month filled tanks, while asking why their $1000 acan lord is dieing, or if these post are from reefkeepers who've been around for a while and have gained a little respect in the community.

I'll skip the joke about these just being different idiots.

Without trying to sound rude, I'm not concerned at all about who is dosing AAs, whether it is some shmo or the greatest reefkeeper of all time. If the science isn't there, and the questions are unanswered, then its bunk plain and simple.

I am a scientist. This is what we do. In science, a theory is guilty until proven valid through careful observation and experimentation.

1i, if you can help me find the article, I will go read it with a scientific mindset, and report back. Who knows? There may be sufficient data present to prove that dosing AAs could help, at which point, I would say that dosing AAs seems okay.

Sometimes, when the end result seems to make sense to us and is the answer we're looking for, like in cold fusion, people gloss over the validity.

Again, I'm not saying that dosing AAs is bunk. I'm just moderately suspicious of the science they claim is at work and I have yet to see any data from a controlled experiment.

Matt

 

[Matt L.]

...If glycerol is alcohol then that's the answer to coral coloration...they get rosy red cheeks when they're loaded. Polyp extension is really a gin blossum.

While technically an "alcohol", I would not consider it as such in the traditiona sense that causes intoxication. There are many alcohols that have a wide range of properties, many of which are as different as can be from the traditional alcohol,

Matt

 

[CamaroJWeed]

I find this thread interesting, humorous, and educational all in one...I can say we are blessed to have such educated members who seem to debate in a very open yet (most time) civilized manor. As an engineer, I am like the science geeks (sorry) I want facts, I am not interested in the flavor of the day for my tank. I will say thought that I have started dosing AA's to see the effect others have spoken of, and I will make my assessment when the bottle is gone...2 thoughts for the group reading. Some smart guy decided one day to put really bright lights on his tank and his electric bill went through the roof and his friends said he was a moron...look at us now...and the second?and this doesn't mean I support the idea of AA's helping corals...but Albert Einstein stated...If at first the idea does not sound absurd, it has no chance...This is why we keep reef tanks and try new things to ensure the success and health of our inhabitants. Keep the posts coming, sometimes I think I learned so much from reading these my head is full?then I go get a cold one, and sit back down to reefology 601?

Jason

 

[One Eye]

While technically an "alcohol", I would not consider it as such in the traditiona sense that causes intoxication. There are many alcohols that have a wide range of properties, many of which are as different as can be from the traditional alcohol,

Matt

Thanks for explaining that to me Matt. Maybe you should have had this discussion with Kitty Dukakas (sp) By the way, I'd prefer to drink it than clean a paint brush or keep my air brakes from freezeing anyway.

As far as a link to the articles go , it's in CORAL magazine...it's in actual print, a magazine written and edited by people like Knop, Nilsen, Fieldler, Wood, and Sprung to name a few...I think 1 or 2 of them might be considered scientist as well as yourself. No offense meant, but as a scientist I would think you'd know to do a little research (and know where to do your research) before posting.

As far as the idiots on RC...I agree, the masses are most definately asses. These are not the folks I'm talking about. I'm talking about the guys that, as you stated were there for us, when we started out, and are still there now, researching, studying their systems everyday. Watching for new and better ways to maintain our corals. Skeptical of trends and fads.
BTW, I never heard a thing about AA dosing from RC. I found the articles written by Kokott and THEN went on RC and found some more interesting reading. I then began to see a pattern, then found out that a couple local reefkeepers with imo very nice systems have been dosing AA for some time.
I don't dose at this time (in case you missed that post) but I do plan on giving it a try. Typicaly I sit back and watch, I don't go with trends, but this study has been ongoing since 1995. I now know of several reefers who've been using AA's for over a year with good results. A way of provideing our corals with proteins/energy without poluting our tanks with phosphates.

 

[Matt L.]

Thanks for explaining that to me Matt. Maybe you should have had this discussion with Kitty Dukakas (sp)

Kitty Dukakis became hooked on isopropal alcohol (rubbing alcohol), not glycerol.

...By the way, I'd prefer to drink it than clean a paint brush or keep my air brakes from freezeing anyway.

No, you really wouldn't want to drink glycerol.

...As far as a link to the articles go , it's in CORAL magazine...it's in actual print, a magazine written and edited by people like Knop, Nilsen, Fieldler, Wood, and Sprung to name a few...

Lots of things wind up in print. One of my recurring criticisms of the reefing community is that someone writes something, and in defense of the author never intending it to be conclusive, and it gets adopted as fact. And if those people you mention are researchers (I don't know them), they would never want their name to imply that their hypotheses are beyond reproach. No one in science ever has the luxury of saying: "Oh, I'm so-and-so and because I've done this for 100 years what I say is the word of G-d." But they do try

...No offense meant, but as a scientist I would think you'd know to do a little research (and know where to do your research) before posting.

1i, we have already had one thread closed on this topic. I was hoping we could have an intelligent debate about amino acid dosing in another thread. I am allowed to express skepticism grounded in scientific fact. I have posed several questions aloud in this thread that I would want answered before I accept AA dosing as beneficial. I have not gone to the article yet but I will when I get a second and I will write back saying that I am either convinced or I my questions were not satisfactorally answered and therefore I am still doubtful.

Matt

 

[nitrofish]

when I first started a salt water tank, all I wanted was "pretty fish", not to be a scientist.

 

[One Eye]

Matt, first off, I know what Kitty was drinking. I was making a joke. Haha...you know joke? Second off, if you don't know of Julian Sprung, Daniel Knopp, Alf Jacob Nilsen etc. Then there probably isn't much point in having any kind of a debate at all. The reference to it being in print was to guide you away from you computer, over to skiptons and pick up a copy. Stateing it was in print did not in any way imply that it was gospel. H*ll, I thought I made myself pretty clear, the author didn't do ANY amino research. He quoted results from amino researh done by others. The article is named "Nutrients in the Reef Aquarium" As far as the questions you have asked, most were answered in the other thread before it was closed. Many were answered again in this thread, before your post.Your questions seem to have limited to one paragraph, while the rest of your posts have been ...well I really don't know what to call. As a scientist, I would think that you would find RC as a useful tool. H*ll every sientist we have come speak to the club ends his discussion with, the science community needs the input of the hobbiest to help continue our understanding..........

OK, just so we're clear. I am just quoting an article. I am not a scientist. The article is in a printed magazine called Coral. The magazine makes no claim to be God, nor does the aurthor of the article, nor the people doing the actual research that was quoted.
The articles name is "Nutrients in the Reef Aquarium" it's a 6 part article. I was actualy, if you go back and read all the post, asking questions about the article. I am not in defense of the author, nor the researchers. As I've posted above, after reading ALL 6 of the articles, reading some of the results being posted by RC members that I consider to be good reefkeepers, finding more articles and reports from other reefing communities and other well known (Borneman) authors and researchers, seeing ,first hand, tanks that have dosed for over a year. I came to the conclusion that I'm gonna try it. I'm going to mix up a glycerol and tonic, then go to work...have a nice day, see ya around 7pm

 

[synchiropi]

Quick aminoacid search

I just used Google scholar, which is Google's beta engine for academic literature searches. Its free!! I found three references that seem interesting:

The first two just let me access the abstract, and they discuss free aminoacid uptake by Tridacna maxima and Pocillopora sp. . The last one is a study concerning a.a. synthesis in scleractinian corals. Would be good if somebody else could continue trying to find some other references.

http://www.springerlink.com/app/hom...al,25,42;linkingpublicationresults,1:100407,1

http://www.springerlink.com/app/hom...al,74,99;linkingpublicationresults,1:100441,1

http://www.biochemj.org/bj/322/0213/3220213.pdf