Do you want LFSs to offer quarantined fish?

[ChrisV]

I agree with Nick that a clean fish will just pick up any existing controlled parasites in a given system. On the other hand, I feel that the QT process is still important to keep out the more deadly nasties that are not going to really be controllable like brook, velvet, uronema. In the confines of an aquarium even with strong UV these can wipe out a population quickly

Brook, velvet, and uronema have taken out their fair share of tanks.

I guess there is always going to be someone who advocates for "no quarantine" given that qt'd fish can always pick something up that's already in a customer's tank.

Personally I would pick quarantined fish 10 times out of 10 if given the option. If there is some latent infection in my tank, it's in some kind of asymptomatic balance and I'm less concerned about it.

Looking back, I see that Nick said that personally, he wouldn't offer it. Does he manage a LFS?

 

[Blue Light Aquatics]

Do you source and then quarantine fish? That is, could I order a fish you don't have and you'd get it and quarantine it?

Yes. We are happy to take special orders. Please keep in mind that this can be a very slow process. Livestock lists have been very limited this past year. Also, we prefer importing over wholesale so depending upon the region the fish you want comes from it can take some time to aquire it then a little over a month to go through our QT process.

 

[this is me]

Looking back, I see that Nick said that personally, he wouldn't offer it. Does he manage a LFS?

I do not manage anything. Lol.
I was saying I wouldn’t offer the QT service if I run a lfs. Just seems like it’s more trouble than it’s worth. You spent all the effort doing it and some idiot takes it home and the fish is infected anyways because he’s a noob and comes back and demand a refund and blame you for killing all his other fish in the tank. I see it all the time actually. People say X and X wipe out their tank because they bought X and X from X and X places.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against QT fish. There’s definitely benefit of it. I was just saying offering someone a QT fish doesn’t always work out. I think it’s better to educate people on what to do rather than doing it for them.

 

[ChrisV]

I do not manage anything. Lol.
I was saying I wouldn’t offer the QT service if I run a lfs. Just seems like it’s more trouble than it’s worth. You spent all the effort doing it and some idiot takes it home and the fish is infected anyways because he’s a noob and comes back and demand a refund and blame you for killing all his other fish in the tank. I see it all the time actually. People say X and X wipe out their tank because they bought X and X from X and X places.

Got it. Sorry, I was confused there.

Honestly I'm not as interested in it from the perspective of assigning blame when there is a problem. I just want the healthiest livestock possible. I don't think the way it's currently being done by most stores is in the best interest of the livestock or of the customer.

I made the mistake of buying a fish recently that was unbagged hours before I purchased it. It was toast by the next morning. Looked healthy enough when I bought it. There was a second fish of the same species and I heard from the LFS that the other fish also died that weekend (in the tank of another customer).

The LFS made it right, as they should have given that it was in my care for a total of 12 hours. In that case I DO think a refund is warranted. In 25 years of reefing this was the first time I bought a fish hours after delivery from the wholesaler, and I'd say it's been about 15 years since a new acquisition died on me. All of that to say that this was not a "noob mistake."

The turnaround on fish in our local market is unreal and I think we as customers should expect the fish to be treated better.

 

[this is me]

Here the other way I see it. I prefer the fish not hitting the LFS water before I get it. I used to go to the lfs every week on delivery day and pick out of the bag. It’s one less stop for the fish and one less system the fish has to acclimate to and one less chance of getting diseases. I either prefer that or the fish has been in the system for a couple weeks(this is very rare to see if the fish is attractive).
I guess it all depends on what you know and how comfortable you are with adding new fish. It’s always a risk.
Also, when you have all sterilized fish in a sterilized tank, all it takes is one mistake to wipe out the pack since they have no immunity whatsoever. A lot of these are brought into the tank by adding corals. Especially those large skeleton LPS, clams, and even shrimp. But that’s probably another topic on QT of corals. Remember, all these nasties occur naturally in the wild. The fish learned how to live with. I understand one is a giant ocean and once is a glass box but there’s should be some truth to that.

 

[PSU4ME]

My preference would be for some sort of conditioning process that doesn’t contribute to diseases becoming resistant to a treatment. So not keeping CP at therapeutic levels is a big one. And think of the commitment needed to do order after order…… you can’t add fish to an in process cycle. Aerosol transmission, mixing equipment etc etc.

Im not saying it can’t be done but it’s almost impossible for a LFS to offer this as an added service vs being a QT fish vendor, IMO.

I really do like the conditioning aspect, holding the fish, feeding quality food with vitamins, beta glucan etc. Added cost of the LFS that I’d pay for. Nori is cheap, hate seeing lettuce in a tank, skinny fish, blah. Make fish a prized part of the tank vs the commodity we’ve turned them into.

 

[ChrisV]

Here the other way I see it. I prefer the fish not hitting the LFS water before I get it. I used to go to the lfs every week on delivery day and pick out of the bag. It’s one less stop for the fish and one less system the fish has to acclimate to and one less chance of getting diseases. I either prefer that or the fish has been in the system for a couple weeks(this is very rare to see if the fish is attractive).
I guess it all depends on what you know and how comfortable you are with adding new fish. It’s always a risk.

I actually agree with you on these points and I've purchased directly from the shipping box too. But at that point I'd rather not pay the LFS markup. If I'm shouldering the risk of a fish responding adversely within the first 24 hours of arrival, it's insane to have to pay full retail. Even though live aquaria has had it's bumps, even they give 10 days of survival on their divers den fish.

Perhaps the worst case scenario is shipping stress + a dip in the pool at the LFS + moving a second time after being exposed to God knows what.

I totally agree that the attractive fish are gone in a flash.

 

[Blue Light Aquatics]

Unfortunately unless you are buying directly from the diver, you are getting a fish that is exposed to just as many if not more so parasites and nasties as you are from the LFS. That wholesaler is bringing in hundreds of boxes a week from all over the world and turn the livestock over in days. The LFS has more incentive to keep at least some quality and care protocol in place for you the consumer

 

[ChrisV]

Unfortunately unless you are buying directly from the diver, you are getting a fish that is exposed to just as many if not more so parasites and nasties as you are from the LFS. That wholesaler is bringing in hundreds of boxes a week from all over the world and turn the livestock over in days. The LFS has more incentive to keep at least some quality and care protocol in place for you the consumer

I completely agree. And I do think that when a LFS has a fish in their care for long enough, there is a real benefit to the stability they can provide. A brief dip in yet another system just provides another parasite exposure though.

It's GREAT to hear that you already offer rigorously quarantined fish! I had no idea.

 

[highfive52]

Problem arises there's no use of putting qt fish in your system unless all go through qt. Waste of time. You would have to pull all and run through humbles qt process only. Starting fresh same process. Strict qt with at least 30 60 90 days in copper, then prazi. After obtaining velvet and ripping tank apart 2 years ago to grab survivors. Everything went thru copper 90 days while tank sat fallow 90 days. All new fish went in with diseased. NO NEW FISH WILL EVER BE ADDED TO SYSTEM. All coral and inverts run thru qt. It's a hard road to follow. Humble has a list of qt peeps that are only to be trusted. After what I went through unless I were to treat myself I don't trust even peeps on list. It is a horrifying experience that left lasting scars. I definitely learned a lot.

 

[highfive52]

I always thought it would be an interesting concept if we had a few members here involved in quaratining for the group. Have all their expenses covered plus additional monetary compensation for the time.

It's a lot of work. Like a newborn when your hearts there. One slip up boom. Start all over. Takes a long time. Some make it some don't. In theory it's awesome but the lost sleep alone is horrifying and not cross contaminating and the list goes on. Is it a awesome feeling yes but down side is no more picking up on fly. Everything has to go thru qt. It doesn't end because fish are clean. Sad

 

[N_E_M_O]

Personally, I would be happy to pay a little bit more for fish that have undergone medicated QT and could be added to my tank directly.

Your inherent problem is in your statement

"A little bit more"

To honestly do a medicated QT, the price is going to be quite a bit more, not just a little bit.

And at the end of the day standard retail couldn't survive with that model. And customers will just go buy cheaper product.

Now of course there is a small percentage of customers that will pay more for quality. But unfortunately not enough to sustain a businesses overhead.

I think the best option if the store can, is to offer a QT option once a Fish is purchased. I know this is something that we always have done.

 

[ChrisV]

Your inherent problem is in your statement

"A little bit more"

To honestly do a medicated QT, the price is going to be quite a bit more, not just a little bit.

And at the end of the day standard retail couldn't survive with that model. And customers will just go buy cheaper product.

Now of course there is a small percentage of customers that will pay more for quality. But unfortunately not enough to sustain a businesses overhead.

I think the best option if the store can, is to offer a QT option once a Fish is purchased. I know this is something that we always have done.

Totally understand that this is difficult to accomplish.

I really think that customers in our area are ready for fully quarantined fish, but I haven't seen a price list.

The prices TSM sells for seem pretty reasonable. Maybe not for everyone, but I think this poll had pretty clear results.

Then again, fish stores in our area seem to sell most of their stock the weekend after it arrives. They don't HAVE to qt to make the sale. It probably wouldn't be a huge bump in profit margin if they did QT. But if there was a store that did QT, I would make them my go-to without thinking twice.

If quarantine at the LFS results in so many losses that we have to double the price for fish because one out of every two fish that are purchased dies, then maybe the lacey act people have a valid point. As a consumer, I don't want to shoulder 50% mortality and I don't have the space to do a proper QT right now.

I totally am down with the idea of paying first before a fish is quarantined, as long as there is the promise of a living fish to be picked up when the time comes. In fact, that's how @Blue Light Aquatics manages their special order QT process in a commercially viable way. I'm very excited to place an order with them.

 

[N_E_M_O]

Totally understand that this is difficult to accomplish.

I really think that customers in our area are ready for fully quarantined fish, but I haven't seen a price list.

The prices TSM sells for seem pretty reasonable. Maybe not for everyone, but I think this poll had pretty clear results.

Then again, fish stores in our area seem to sell most of their stock the weekend after it arrives. They don't HAVE to qt to make the sale. It probably wouldn't be a huge bump in profit margin if they did QT. But if there was a store that did QT, I would make them my go-to without thinking twice.

If quarantine at the LFS results in so many losses that we have to double the price for fish because one out of every two fish that are purchased dies, then maybe the lacey act people have a valid point. As a consumer, I don't want to shoulder 50% mortality and I don't have the space to do a proper QT right now.

I totally am down with the idea of paying first before a fish is quarantined, as long as there is the promise of a living fish to be picked up when the time comes. In fact, that's how @Blue Light Aquatics manages their special order QT process in a commercially viable way. I'm very excited to place an order with them.

So, the biggest problem with this and a retail store is that only a small percentage of customers will be willing to pay for QT fish. And tying up all that SF with unsellable product is the #1 no,no in retail. And a certain way to ensure your budiness fails. You try telling customers, "oh I'm sorry, but I can't sell you that Fish today. Its in quarantine " sure way to put yourself out of business. Lol
Perdonally, I focus on conditioning the Fish more than amything. Because as mentioned even if you preform the best quarantine process ever, that doesn't ensure that the Fish doesn't get sick. As he is still susceptible to getting whatever is already in the tank.
We would gladly pull any Fish and put it through quarantine once the Fish is purchased. Quarantine pricing would depend on the Fish itself and what was needed.

I used to get yelled at for telling customers not to buy Fish that just came in, store owners dont like that, lol thats why I started putting arrival dates on all of our Fish years ago. So you know exactly how long we have had them.
I have always based my pricing this way too. We give "bag price" on a ton of Fish for people that want to take the Fish direct from the shipping box to QT themselves, as this is the least amount of stress to the Fish. Then we have a standard price for the first 3 weeks we have a Fish, then after the 4th week that price increases to the conditioned price. This is pretty much what I have done for the last 15 years. And will continue this at the new shop, as well as offer QT on all Fish, as an additional service we can offer.

 

[ChrisV]

So, the biggest problem with this and a retail store is that only a small percentage of customers will be willing to pay for QT fish. And tying up all that SF with unsellable product is the #1 no,no in retail. And a certain way to ensure your budiness fails. You try telling customers, "oh I'm sorry, but I can't sell you that Fish today. Its in quarantine " sure way to put yourself out of business. Lol
Perdonally, I focus on conditioning the Fish more than amything. Because as mentioned even if you preform the best quarantine process ever, that doesn't ensure that the Fish doesn't get sick. As he is still susceptible to getting whatever is already in the tank.
We would gladly pull any Fish and put it through quarantine once the Fish is purchased. Quarantine pricing would depend on the Fish itself and what was needed.

I used to get yelled at for telling customers not to buy Fish that just came in, store owners dont like that, lol thats why I started putting arrival dates on all of our Fish years ago. So you know exactly how long we have had them.
I have always based my pricing this way too. We give "bag price" on a ton of Fish for people that want to take the Fish direct from the shipping box to QT themselves, as this is the least amount of stress to the Fish. Then we have a standard price for the first 3 weeks we have a Fish, then after the 4th week that price increases to the conditioned price. This is pretty much what I have done for the last 15 years. And will continue this at the new shop, as well as offer QT on all Fish, as an additional service we can offer.

I think you bring up a really key point: a fish store doesn't have to be all or nothing. There can be fish that are not quarantined for people who do not want to pay for it.

I like the idea of conditioning. There was a great store in the DC area when I lived down there that had no QT, but they kept all fish for two weeks before selling. The had space in a back room, it wasn't all taking up storefront. Prices were about 25% more than the competition, but everyone knew that he had the best fish and many people paid for it. The store was open for like two decades before he retired and move to Florida.

I do wonder about the price hike for fish that stay longer than three weeks as a blanket policy. Is it your experience that they sell better and demand the higher price then, or are you raising the price on a product that was already hard to sell?

 

[dz6t]

If a fish can live pass 3 weeks after shipping, it is a keeper.

 

[N_E_M_O]

I think you bring up a really key point: a fish store doesn't have to be all or nothing. There can be fish that are not quarantined for people who do not want to pay for it.

I like the idea of conditioning. There was a great store in the DC area when I lived down there that had no QT, but they kept all fish for two weeks before selling. The had space in a back room, it wasn't all taking up storefront. Prices were about 25% more than the competition, but everyone knew that he had the best fish and many people paid for it. The store was open for like two decades before he retired and move to Florida.

I do wonder about the price hike for fish that stay longer than three weeks as a blanket policy. Is it your experience that they sell better and demand the higher price then, or are you raising the price on a product that was already hard to sell?

Blanket policy for sure. No Fish is hard to sell, lol. I turn more sales away than I make. Too many people want to buy Fish that either won't work with their setup or they just can't keep. So in my shop, I dont let them. So, its not like im raising a price on something thats hard to sell.

 

[Sean Irwin]

Most fish should be conditioned for some nominal amount of time to minimize the risk of post-shipping mortality, and having an angry customer who's (still stressed) fish dies. Some period of observation/treatment* in an isolated system makes sense, especially for species that are susceptible to certain diseases like Ick (looking at you Powder Blue Tang). I'll absolutely pay more for fish that have gone through something like that. Isolation and acclimation is great, but it's not a quarantine.


Quarantining only makes sense as a standalone, separate charge or built into the cost for very high value fish. Doing it properly is expensive. You need isolated systems with dedicated everything (feeding pipets, skimmer, heaters, etc.) A "real" quarantine is also 40 days long. At a minimum, a fish should be housed for several days past the lifecycle of parasites like Ick. The setups also need to be drained, and cleaned thoroughly between QT's. I estimate that it would be $75-100 in labor alone for one month (15 minutes daily x 30 days x $10-15/ HR). That's likely cost prohibitive.

Even then, it wouldn't guarantee that your tank wouldn't get some infection (only that the particular fish isn't the source). To do that, everything "wet" has to be QT'd.

TLDR: Brief isolation/observation/conditioning periods are a good bet for LFS's. True quarantines only make sense for very high value livestock or for deep-pocketed clients.

*Personally, I'm not a huge fan of prophylacticaly treating all fish with medication. Some species are very sensitive to medications. For example, the concentration of Copper that works on a Clownfish may kill a scale-less fish like a Goby. Copper in particular, can cause immunosuppression. That's acceptable if the parasites are killed off, but if the medication isn't titrated correctly, some of the parasites will survive, and have an easier time infecting the weakened fish. The immunocompromised fish will also be more susceptible to bacterial or viral infections.

 

[N_E_M_O]

I estimate that it would be $75-100 in labor alone for one month (15 minutes daily x 30 days x $10-15/ HR). That's likely cost prohibitive.

Really, where can I find employees that will work for $10-$15/hr.

Please tell me where you think these people are???

Cause I can't find even one good employee for $20/hr.

Plus comnercial electric rates are up almost 40% from last year. So all that extra equipment (especially 100-200 watt heaters) running all the time adds up to a lot in overhead.

Yes, no matter what the charge would be it would not be profitable for the business. But a good business will offer services that are not always profitable in the act it self, but will benefit the business and the customer in the long run.

 

[ChrisV]

Really, where can I find employees that will work for $10-$15/hr.

Please tell me where you think these people are???

Cause I can't find even one good employee for $20/hr.

Plus comnercial electric rates are up almost 40% from last year. So all that extra equipment (especially 100-200 watt heaters) running all the time adds up to a lot in overhead.

Yes, no matter what the charge would be it would not be profitable for the business. But a good business will offer services that are not always profitable in the act it self, but will benefit the business and the customer in the long run.

There certainly are a lot of factors to consider. It's very impressive that there are folks who make this business model work.