Introduction thread - Ick issue

[srivatsa]

Hi,

My 7 year old daughter and me are saltwater newbie’s - with a 29 gallon bio cube (a month old) with a couple of clown fish, aspiring to setup a reef tank once we get the basics correct!

We have a black clown fish; from what I see looks like has Ick disease. The fish has white spots (looks like bubbles and often rubs against rocks). Like any newbie we did not quarantine fish from the pet store and looks like he is sick and is not eating since.

Thanks for any pointers.

 

[Blueflu1]

Do you have another tank that you can set up as a quarantine tank? In my experience, the best way to get rid of ich it to put the fish in a QT tank and perform hyposalinty on them. (google it, but basically it is when you lower the salinity of the water gradually then hold it there for a number of weeks. The ich cant survive the lower salinity then dies. Then you raise it up again slowly). If you can't do hypo, I would suggest just feeding them well, keeping them from getting stressed and hope that they can fight it off themselves. Some suggest soaking their food in garlic. You don't really want to medicate your main tank. You can't perform hypo in the main tank either unless it is a bare tank without live rock, sand and corals. Inverts will not survive hypo either. You can also use copper based medications in a QT tank but DO NOT use them in your main tank. Many inverts, corals etc.. will not tolerate copper at all.

 

[srivatsa]

Great. I have a 10 gallon QT which I will start with hyposalinty.

Reduce gradually from 1.022 way down to 1.010 - four weeks but six weeks
Start with copper medication as needed.

I also introduced 3 cleaning crew, very small hermit crabs. Not sure if the Ick is from the crabs. I will probably quarentine these too with the black clown just to be safe

Thanks again!

 

[stingythingy45]

Just a quick question.
Did you cycle the bio cube?

 

[stingythingy45]

Great. I have a 10 gallon QT which I will start with hyposalinty.

Reduce gradually from 1.022 way down to 1.010 - four weeks but six weeks
Start with copper medication as needed.

I also introduced 3 cleaning crew, very small hermit crabs. Not sure if the Ick is from the crabs. I will probably quarentine these too with the black clown just to be safe

Thanks again!

NO

You can't do hypo on crabs,they'll die.
They do not carry the ich parasite.

 

[stingythingy45]

Here is a very informative article about ich and treatments.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

 

[srivatsa]

Ok. got it. I will just QT the black clown. Thanks for the link.

 

[JohnK]

Are there any other fish? If so, they will keep the parisite alive so that it would be pointless to remove the one fish, treat it, then return it. If you treat (copper or hypo) you need to treat ALL the fish.

Once there are no fish whatsoever in the display tank, it should stay fishless for 6 + weeks to be sure the ick dies out in that tank.

Do not use Copper and hypo together. I don't recall the exact risk, but IIRC doing both at the same time is very likely to kill the fish (serious internal organ damage IIRC).


FWIW, lots of people have ick in their tanks but just "manage" it by keeping stress low and feeding well. Fish do have some natural immunity, so if they are strong and healthy they will often fight the infection off for the most part. The downside is that whenever there is new stress in the tank (like adding a new fish) the ick is likely to re-appear. "managment" is an option.

If you do treat with hypo, you MUST test the salinity accurately (use a refractometer, NOT a swing arm hydrometer) and very often. Just a little evaporation can bring the SG up enough to make the treatment ineffective. The usual reccomendation is to keep the SG at 1.009. Personally I've had good luck keeping it at no higher than 1.008. Keep it at whichever hypo level you go with for at least 6 weeks, plus at least a few days to bring the SG down, and at least a week to bring it back up (it's much more important to bring it back up slowly, fish will usually tolerate a fairly rapid drop but not a rapid rise.)

If you treat with copper, the treatment only takes around 2 weeks, but the display will still need to stay fishless for 6 or more weeks. With copper, it's critical to test daily and keep the Cu at a theraputic level ALL the time. Definatly do your homework on this, there are different kinds of copper meds, and different types of test. I don't know enough to advise you on the specifics here, but be careful and make sure you know what your doing before starting.

Both Copper and Hypo can have risks. "management" also has it's risks. No one solution/approach is right for everyone.


Oh yea, Welcome to the club

 

[Blueflu1]

I agree 100% with John above, and like I said in my original post and Bob said, Do not hypo inverts. They cannot survive the low salinity. Fish only and all must be treated.

Everyone has their opinions and not one is a sure fix or the only right treatment in my opinion. I have dealt with Ich 3 or 4 times in the last 5 years and I have only really tried hypo. I have had good luck with it but others may have good experiences with other treatments.

And like John said, the tank must remain fallow for 6-8 weeks or else the fish will just be reinfected. As far as I know, inverts do not carry ich. I believe the ich burrows into the gills and scales of fish, so inverts are safe. Also some scale less fish are ich resistant.

 

[JohnK]

Of course there is the minute risk that a tomont could have settled on just about anything, hence the sometimes shared advice that "anything wet" could bring in an infection

 

[Blueflu1]

Of course there is the minute risk that a tomont could have settled on just about anything, hence the sometimes shared advice that "anything wet" could bring in an infection

You have more experience then me John, so I am not sure. I am just speculating here.
Ich's life cycle is fairly short. Once it is introduced into the tank and begins to mature, doesn't it need a host fish to survive? If so, even if a tomont got introduced with an invert, it cannot mature on the invert and certainly cannot survive long enough to reproduce. If this is true, then it will not make it past the first or second life cycle and will die off in a matter of days or weeks.

I am by no means an expert. This is just my understanding. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

[JohnK]

Hey, I don't know either, just the things that I've heard.

I've never infected a tank with inverts, rock or coral as far as I know. I also don't know that it is not possible, but some say it is.

My best bet is that it is possible, but very very unlikely. I'll add inverts or corals without a full QT sometimes, but IMO there is some risk attached.

 

[srivatsa]

Great tips. thanks all. I did not expect such good response!

For now I just have one tomato clown, one black clown and 3 hermit crabs.

Like you suggested, I am done setting up a bare (no LR/LS) 10G QT (with heater and no carbon filter) and have seperated just the fish. I will reduce the salenity gradually next 3 weeks and see if the fish survive. I was also debating between copper vs formaline. I decided to try hypo first week at least and then decide.

I also made a 20% water change on the display 29G bio cube, I will let it sit with no fish but only crabs to cycle further.

To earlier Bobs question, how do I know if the tank is cycled. I use the pH & Alkalinity test and the color codes dont fluctuate much. Do I need the Ammonia and Nitrate tests? I thought a 10% weekly change is good enough rather than weekly tests.

I have decided not to refrain from asking some basic questions, since this a pretty good forum.

 

[JohnK]

FWIW hypo only works if you fully commit to it. Semi hypo will annoy ick a bit and inhibit it a little, but won't kill it at all.

I'd suggest either doing it all the way, or not bothering at all.

You can drop the SG over just a few days if your going to go that route. Dropping it super slow may actually be counter productive as it will allow the parisite to continue to attack the fish for a while as it's in the QT.

 

[tigerslacrosse4]

first off your salinity is low as it is. ocean waters SG is around 1.025 1.026 1.022 is low for corals etc. if its fish olny its fine but corals need 1.026. I would keep the tank a little warmer too. make sure you acclimate the fish very well because any temp or salinity changes will stress him out more and will likely kill him. be very careful ick can take SW fish very easy. however clowns are tough as nails so it will probably pull through.

 

[stingythingy45]

Great tips. thanks all. I did not expect such good response!

For now I just have one tomato clown, one black clown and 3 hermit crabs.

Like you suggested, I am done setting up a bare (no LR/LS) 10G QT (with heater and no carbon filter) and have seperated just the fish. I will reduce the salenity gradually next 3 weeks and see if the fish survive. I was also debating between copper vs formaline. I decided to try hypo first week at least and then decide.

I also made a 20% water change on the display 29G bio cube, I will let it sit with no fish but only crabs to cycle further.

To earlier Bobs question, how do I know if the tank is cycled. I use the pH & Alkalinity test and the color codes dont fluctuate much. Do I need the Ammonia and Nitrate tests? I thought a 10% weekly change is good enough rather than weekly tests.

I have decided not to refrain from asking some basic questions, since this a pretty good forum.

Yes if the tank was not cycled the ammonia could be,eventually will be deadly.Read up on the nitrate cycle.
You will also have ammonia become present in the qt.You'll have to keep that minimal with water changes every few days.
Both tanks will most likely go through a cycle.Ammonia>nitrite>nitrate.

 

[jmac5058]

When setting up the QT tank put some pvc pipe fittings to hide in this will reduce stress and help recouperation.