lanthanum chloride?

[Greg Hiller]

Joe Y. talks about using it at Atlantis in this article:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/2/aquarium/view

 

[Greg Hiller]

Looks like this is the product that most folks use:

http://www.seaklear.com/p_2phosphate.asp#tech

 

[Calciumbuf]

Ha wouldn't you know its sold right around the corner from me go figure

 

[Greg Hiller]

Heck, there a pool place on my way home from work that sells it. Might just drop by on my bicycle!

 

[reefkeeper2]

No one has answered me on that post on RC, so I'm guessing no one has tried that approach before. From what I've read, most hobbyists have just added it to their sumps. I like your skimmer idea Greg.

 

[abwalker]

What would remove humic acid before going through "Phoslock"?

Carbon? Isn't humic acid the "tannins" that yellow freshwater tanks?

Any thoughts on what the increased solids would do to the overall efficiency of the skimmer? I suppose it would depend on how much phosphate is there to begin with, but would the floc lower the bubble surface area enough to reduce the amount of skimmate produced?

(Forgive me if I missed the answer to this in the posted links)

Abby

 

[Jennifer]

Carbon?

It appears that carbon will remove Humic acids from the water.

Isn't humic acid the "tannins" that yellow freshwater tanks?

Abby

Here is a definition that I found.

Humic acids are a complex mixture of partially "decomposed" and
otherwise transformed organic materials. The chemistry of their
formation is quite complex, and freshwater humic acids can come from a
variety of cources, most of which are on land (decomposing terrestrial
vegetation.) These substances wash into lakes and rivers, undergoing
further transofrmations along the way, and ultimately into the ocean.
Most but certainly not all of the marine humic acids also ultimately
have their origin on land. Almost all of the lignins found in marine
environments originate on land.

The Reason why I asked the question is because I happen to use Phoslock. IMO I believe this to be the superior phosphate removing media on the market. Right now I have 2- TLF reactors on my system 1 containing carbon and the other "phoslock" . They are being supplied by 1 pump and T'd off so that the pump pushes through both reactors at the same time and not 1 to the other and then out.
If humic acids decrease the effectiveness of Lanthanum/Phoslock then maybe I should re plumb my reactors so that the water goes through the carbon first to remove the Humic acids and then to The reactor containing the Phoslock. There by increasing the efficiency of the media to remove phosphates.


As far as straight Lanthanum goes I do not dispute its effectiveness I merely wanted to point out the dangers of overdosing it. My research shows that care must be taken as to how/where in the system it is dosed to prevent problems such as fish deaths.

I found this quote here http://aqualitysymposium.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6

With regards to phosphate removal Lanthanum chloride is an excellent product because it has a high catalytic activity. Ferric salts have also been used by aquaculture and the water industry. Ferric has a very low toxicity however over many years we have identified some serious issues.

Small particles of ferric oxide can form, these particles may only be a few microns in diameter, but they can become trapped in the gill lamellae. The ferric will catalysis the dissociation of oxygen to produce free radicals in the gills, and this in turn causes zones of gill damage leading to myxobacterial gill infections.

My fear was that new members after reading this thread may go out and buy Lanthanum and dose it with out being aware of what could happen if not being careful of how/where it was introduced.

I am sure Joe Y has done his homework on the issue so I will certainly take stock in the method he is using to dose Lanthanum.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Bottom Line / Method?

Is there a bottom line here and/or a safe method (for us lazy aquarists who don't want to read all the supporting documentation) to add this stuff to your system?

 

[Greg Hiller]

Chuck,

1st post is what you need:

>My understanding is that the chemical bonds (?) with phosphate and turns it into an insoluble (?) solid.<

Then filter it out.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Lc

Thanks Greg....Is there a recommended dosage rate ?

Chuck,

1st post is what you need:

>My understanding is that the chemical bonds (?) with phosphate and turns it into an insoluble (?) solid.<

Then filter it out.

 

[Greg Hiller]

Joe Y. was using 300 ml diluted in 5 gallons of DI water per 20,000 gallons of tank water. He said this would drop PO4 by 0.1 ppm overnight. That's mighty fast for a BIG drop; too scary for me. I'm going to start at about 1/10x that dosage, which for my 400 gallon system is about 0.6 ml/day....not much! I'm going to dilute it into about 100 ml of DI water and pump it in continuously into the outflow from my calcium reactor, that will then go though a particle filter. If it does not cause any problems I may slowly ramp up.

I ran though some calculations around my calcium reactor. I figure water in is 400 ppm Ca, 3 meq/l, out is about 440 ppm Ca, and 5 meq/l. I'm using ARM, and in an article I wrote a long time ago I calculated that ARM (from an analysis I did) had 1925 ppm Ca for every 1 ppm phosphate. So...if phosphate coming in is about 0.03 ppm (last I measured it) it should be about 0.05 ppm coming out. My only question is whether LaCl3 can really pull phosphate down below 0.05 ppm, otherwise, as Jeremy mentioned, I'm just wasting my time.

FWIW, even if I ramp all the way up to the rate that Joe Y. is using it, the 1 liter bottle ($30 I think I paid) I have coming will last me about 1/2 year.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I am not a fan of lanthanum. But part of that is a professional thing where a lanthanum product (lanthanum carbonate; Fosrenol) is trying to compete with my products (Renagel and Renvela) for binding phosphate in the GI tract of people with kidney disease. Luckily, we are easily winning that battle. But my own issues aside...

My concern with lanthanum in a reef tank, aside from not really knowing what elevated lanthanum levels do to everything alive in the tank, and not having ever seen any data of how high the soluble lanthanum levels actually get when using it, is that when lanthanum phosphate is precipitated, it most likely just settles out somewhere. I don't prefer to see the primary export method just pile up on the bottom.

 

[Jennifer]

The Reason why I asked the question is because I happen to use Phoslock. IMO I believe this to be the superior phosphate removing media on the market. Right now I have 2- TLF reactors on my system 1 containing carbon and the other "phoslock" . They are being supplied by 1 pump and T'd off so that the pump pushes through both reactors at the same time and not 1 to the other and then out.
If humic acids decrease the effectiveness of Lanthanum/Phoslock then maybe I should re plumb my reactors so that the water goes through the carbon first to remove the Humic acids and then to The reactor containing the Phoslock. There by increasing the efficiency of the media to remove phosphates.

I guess i forgot to put a question mark after that.
This was a serious question, I am unsure if re plumbing my reactors would make difference in the longevity/usefulness of the Phoslock.

 

[Greg Hiller]

Randy, how's your ICP working these days? Can it detect La?

I'm actually wondering whether the La will precip. phosphate if it's already at low levels, like in the 0.05 ppm range.