Overflow box and sump questions

[alpha0r]

I got the info on cheeto tumbling from Calfo's Reef Invertebrates. He didn't give a specific flow rate he just said it needs to tumble. I made up the 20x for illustrative purposes. I'm not exactly sure how much flow it would take. Perhaps you are correct on 10x.

My point is that the flow though the sump should be decided based on the optimum rate for the filtration components (skimmer and fuge) not what the display needs. To many people (Including myself an one point) decide that their display needs X amount of flow and try to pull all of it though the sump which leads to problems. I am hope scuba kid won't make the same mistake. I think we are in agreement on this.

EDIT: I think the high flow also keeps the macroalgae clean. Junk settling on it will block some of the light.

 

[KRod]

Okay...well the tank is already set up as a FOWLR. Drilling is not optional.

I'm not a complete dunce (just slightly ) so I understand powerheads and things. I've been keeping saltwater tanks for a loooooong time, this is just my first real reef tank, and therefore never actually plumbed a tank to incorporate a sump. I already have a Koralia 4 and will get another powerhead later on. I'm not setting the sump up as my main circulation.

I just skimmed through the respones now, but I actually have to take off for a bit...I just wanted to check the responses before leaving...boy do I have a lot to read and take in!

I'll really read them over when I get home tonight and I'm sure I'll have more questions.

Thanks again for the help and advice, everyone! You guys rock.

 

[stingythingy45]

Do you have a LINK TO THIS?
Calfo's "Reef Invertebrates".
Thanks,I would like to read this.
I've found things in a refugium to be very different,as my fellow reefer's have.

 

[alpha0r]

I borrowed the book from Jenn so I can't give you a page number at this time. However, I am 100% certain that I read it in that book.

Here is an amazon link to the book.
http://www.amazon.com/Reef-Invertebrates-Essential-Selection-Compatibility/dp/0967263034

Here is an excerpt from an online article Calfo published:

"For culturing either genera is to insure strong enough waterflow in an open tank (keep no rocks or other objects on the tank bottom) so that the algae colonies grow in a constantly tumbling ball! This can be achieved or enhanced by sealing a small lip of glass or acrylic 5-8 cm wide just below the water surface (the length of the aquarium side wall) where the refugiums feed water jets into the tank. Thus, the incoming water is diffused along that slightly submerged lip and is forced to shoot across the tank surface, rather than at a deeper angle underneath. This causes a circular/rolling current of water (like an eddy in a swimming pool) to flow across the top of the tank, down the far side-wall and underneath across the bottom before coming back up again. A small starter colony of Chaetomorpha or Gracilaria will then begin to grow in a symmetrical ball and enjoy not only the benefit of evenly distributed water flow, but also the cyclic exposure of all parts of the colony to the bright light as the surface as it tumbles around!"

Here is a link to the full article:
http://www.reefland.com/rho/0105/main2.php

 

[alpha0r]

FWIW I am not saying cheeto wont work if it doesn't tumble. I'm just saying it will work better if it does.

 

[stingythingy45]

I borrowed the book from Jenn so I can't give you a page number at this time. However, I am 100% certain that I read it in that book.

Here is an amazon link to the book.
http://www.amazon.com/Reef-Invertebrates-Essential-Selection-Compatibility/dp/0967263034

Here is an excerpt from an online article Calfo published:

"For culturing either genera is to insure strong enough waterflow in an open tank (keep no rocks or other objects on the tank bottom) so that the algae colonies grow in a constantly tumbling ball! This can be achieved or enhanced by sealing a small lip of glass or acrylic 5-8 cm wide just below the water surface (the length of the aquarium side wall) where the refugiums feed water jets into the tank. Thus, the incoming water is diffused along that slightly submerged lip and is forced to shoot across the tank surface, rather than at a deeper angle underneath. This causes a circular/rolling current of water (like an eddy in a swimming pool) to flow across the top of the tank, down the far side-wall and underneath across the bottom before coming back up again. A small starter colony of Chaetomorpha or Gracilaria will then begin to grow in a symmetrical ball and enjoy not only the benefit of evenly distributed water flow, but also the cyclic exposure of all parts of the colony to the bright light as the surface as it tumbles around!"

Here is a link to the full article:
http://www.reefland.com/rho/0105/main2.php

Thanks,

I understand about the tumbling and not.It seems to grow so fast that there's no way it would tumble in a 10 gallon.
Maybe I need to upgrade........yup,there's that word again.lol
I just like to read like crazy.I'm sure you understand,alphaOr.

 

[alpha0r]

Upgrade...I agree.

 

[alpha0r]

Excellent thread on fuge flow rates:

Refugium tips (formerly "flow rate thorugh a refugium")
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=462212&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

 

[JohnK]

FWIW I am not saying cheeto wont work if it doesn't tumble. I'm just saying it will work better if it does.

I'd agree with that.

Mine grows like crazy, but if I don't harvest it out often enough, it clearly starts to block itself of light. When this happens it starts to layer (but trim agressively and it seems to be fine). I've also seen the very bottom layer start to get encrused in what seems to be calcerous deposits if I ignore it long enough. I'm sure this isn't what we want happening, but it only seems to happen when it's not trimmed (and rolling it around can't hurt, right Mr. Calfo?)

IMO Mr. C is quite right about the "tumbleweed" set up being ideal. Just that the other side of it is that cheato dosen't need to be set up ideally to be of great benifit.

"There are a lot of ways to run a reef"

 

[JayM]

when I get lazy, my chaeto grows from a ball into a mat, and the bottom filaments yellow out some. When I trim, I trim from the bottom.

however, I have lower flow through my fuge than is listed above as optimal. I keep a 40g breeder just as a pod and chaeto farm....although some caulerpa has sneaked into it as of late. Growth is not an issue. I would not be overly concerned about the tumbling....mine has never tumbled,and as my reef system has matured, algaes have become less of a problem....at least in the display

 

[KRod]

Well, i think I decided I'm going to go with the Eshopps 900 GPH overflow with an Eheim hobby pump as a return, even though they're a little expensive.

Now my question is, which Eheim should I get? I used the head loss calculator on reef central, but they didn't have the Eheim pump I'm looking at listed...so how much loss should I estimate here if I get the 898 GPH model? Its a standard 150 gallon sitting on the stand made for it. I'm thinking its around 5 feet from the floor to the top of the tank. I haven't taken measurements, I'm just guessing. So I'm thinking I'm going to be losing quite a bit? Any input on this?

 

[stingythingy45]

I would think the Eheim 1262 would work fine for your application.
There's no problem with throttling back a centrifugal pump if it's a little too much.

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewI...altwater_Aquarium_Supplies~vendor~~tab~1.html

 

[KRod]

Okay.

How will a 45 gallon sump work? Should it be big enough?
I'm going for a fairly standard size tank, something that will fit in the stand. So, the width needs to be less than 18 inches...

 

[JohnK]

I'd say that pump and that size sump would get you in the ball park. From there it would be design and details.

My sump is about 35G on system with a 120 and 2x20G all plumbed together and it works with something like 1200-1400 GPH actual circulation.

 

[stingythingy45]

^^

Thanks John,

I thought that pump made the most sense as well.

 

[KRod]

I'd say that pump and that size sump would get you in the ball park. From there it would be design and details.

My sump is about 35G on system with a 120 and 2x20G all plumbed together and it works with something like 1200-1400 GPH actual circulation.

I'm thinking I pretty much want to duplicate the sump design in the link I posted from melev's reef. Simple enough, and it includes a fuge in the sump, which is what I wanted. My only concern is whether a sump around 40 or so gallons will be enough to hold enough water in case of a power outage.

 

[JohnK]

I'm thinking I pretty much want to duplicate the sump design in the link I posted from melev's reef. Simple enough, and it includes a fuge in the sump, which is what I wanted. My only concern is whether a sump around 40 or so gallons will be enough to hold enough water in case of a power outage.

As long as you set up siphon breaks high enough that you don't have an excessive amount of water draining down, and don't run the water level in the sump too high, you should be fine with a 40g as the sump (this is what I meant before by saying " From there it would be design and details.")

 

[alpha0r]

Assuming your tank is 72.5x18.5, you will need 5.8 gallons (1341 cubic inches) of overflow capacity for each inch the water is lower with the pump off.

 

[KRod]

yeah, I think I calculated that to roughly 20 gallons.

What would be the best way to control how much water I run through the sump? I'm thinking I'm going to have to run only half of the volume of the sump if I go with ~40 gallons.

 

[alpha0r]

You expect that the water in the display will be 4" lower with the pump off? 4" is a huge amount. You should be able to put a siphon break about 1/2" below the water line on the return pipe so that you don't need so much overflow.