Two part versus Calcium Reactor thoughts...

[Aquaman_68]

Sorry Dong, I thought I was pretty clear that I was honestly curious and intended no offence.

Regardless, I guess I was mistaken as to what you supplement.



I think if you dose two part via the method I described (diluted mixture 24 hrs/day), you are in essence doing the exact same thing as you would be with a reactor. Impurities (whether in the end this is an issue or not, I'll leave that up to each to decide for themselves) aside, two part IMO actually does have some measurable advantages over a reactor setup IME.

Your intitled to have your opinion as others on this thread....I will ask you in a couple years once your monster tank starts to grow in if you still feel this way...If your happy doing it that way...That is all that matters....

Take care,
B

 

[dz6t]

It is possible that when that monster tank starts, dosing two parts will be the only option. Try to imagine how big a reactor needed to suppliment enough calcium and Alk. For two parts, you can always add more with very little efforts.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Does dissolviong the media with HCI yeild identical results as dissolving with CO2.

I'd think mostly yes, but the strong acid may dissolve some things that could stay behind in the reactor and get cleaned out.


i also see no sign of elements such as bromine in those reactor media tests,where they not present or were they just not tested for?


He did not test for it. It is not, I believe, easily detected at even seawater levels by ICP (the method he used).

 

[dz6t]

Randy, how about using citric acid solution instead of HCl?

 

[Aquaman_68]

It is possible that when that monster tank starts, dosing two parts will be the only option. Try to imagine how big a reactor needed to suppliment enough calcium and Alk. For two parts, you can always add more with very little efforts.

Yeah.....& how big a container you will need to dose!!! (two containers)


& how often they have to be filled!!!

 

[dz6t]

Yeah.....& how big a container you will need to dose!!! (two containers)


& how often they have to be filled!!!

It is still faster than a calcium reactor.

Actually, it is not that much at all. Currently I use 0.75 gallon of each Two-Parts (formular 2) per week for a 125 gallon. Let say the monster tank is 500 gallon, that means 3 gallons per week.

Let's say double the consumtion for a extremely populated SPS tank, that is 6 gallon per week.

Formular two called for 1.25 cup of Dowflake per gallon of water, 6 gallon will need 10.5 cup of Dowflake per week. That is not that much at all. Also, by then all the powerhead will be jammed solid very fast.

 

[ReeferMedic]

Again, I believe it's "to each his/her own". Personally, I can't remember the last time I had to touch my reactor(knock on wood!). The bucket that holds my kalk needs more maintainance than my reactor.

 

[Dave McReeferson]

Your intitled to have your opinion as others on this thread....I will ask you in a couple years once your monster tank starts to grow in if you still feel this way...If your happy doing it that way...That is all that matters....

Take care,
B

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Hiller;
One aspect of the two-part solutions that I worry about is that at the really high use rates, I wonder about the other elements that are being added, but not necessarily consumed by the corals. Also, with the changes in bromide levels in Dowflake, I don't know whether they days of cheap two-part solutions are coming to an end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam
What i will say though is that i am far happier dissolving coral skeletons that originated from the reef

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reef55
Ok, I understand the dissolving coral skeletons part being a good thing ..[but].. Then you don't know what crap is in your reactor either my friend

These are the points that are prompting my move away from a dosing scheme and to a reactor. The Bromine issue kind of opened my eyes (though it had always been somewhere in the back of my mind) that I don't really know what is, and is not, in these "manufactured" supplements. Nothing is 100% pure, and on the flip side, while the same holds true for coral skeletons, I imagine it holds true as much for bad stuff (like phosphates), as it does for good things (like the Mg I mentioned earlier, though not limited to that). Perhaps my dosing was leaving something out other than the Mg that would promote better growth and greater health.

In the end, who really knows, while we like to apply strict science and math wherever possible, so much of this hobby is based on guesswork and an individual's perception of "results".

I am not really sure why more time would change my opinion of the viability of this two part scheme. A couple years is more than enough time for a person to become acquainted with any given system and it's operation, I have a firm grasp of what is required to maintain such a system, and it isn't much. The fact of the matter is I had originally planned to run a calcium reactor on our first system. I had only set up the dosing system as a stop gap solution to get me by until I had one up and running, but I never ended up changing over, because it was so damned easy to just let the dosing pumps do their thing.

Yeah.....& how big a container you will need to dose!!! (two containers)


& how often they have to be filled!!!

I currently use 55 gallon drums, these require re-filling about every month and a half or so. I think most people use a more concentrated mix, and hence less volume is needed, but I personally feel much safer dosing more dilute mixtures at a constant rate rather than bursts of more concentrated concoctions. As demand increases, I strengthen the mix, the pumps just keep chugging along, the drip rate never wavers, and the corals continue to grow.

 

[Dave McReeferson]

I think given that both systems have been around for some time now, we are only really left with a few points to argue...

1 - The reliability and consistency of either method versus the other...

2 - The purity of the ingredients (be it two part or reactor media)...

3 - Ease of use...


My take?

1 - Either system, when properly set-up using quality components, both reliable and consistent.

2 - I lean towards the reactor on this one, but can acknowledge that no one really knows definitively one way or the other what is best, it comes down to a matter of what your gut tells you IMO, and we could argue all day about that (but why? If there is no real black and white answer is there any point?).

3 - I think it reasonable to assume from the postings thus far, that both sides will claim their systems, when set up properly using quality equipment, require little attention and are very simple and easy to deal with. Assuming that, I will call that one a draw.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, how about using citric acid solution instead of HCl?

The beauty of CO2 is that once you've used it to dissolve the CaCO3, it can be blown off to the air. Note that ALL of the CO2 added must be removed this way, and it is.

If you use any other acid, you must consider what will ultimately become of it. Citric acid will depress pH while there, and after being metabolized by bacteria to CO2, could be blown off. But the low pH and the consumption of O2 by bacteria to metabolize that citric acid would likely be a problem.

Note that you'd be adding even more citric acid, per unit of calcium and alkalinity delivered, than if you just dosed calcium citrate, because a good portion of citric acid will be added just to drive the pH down low enough to begin dissolve the CaCO3. Only then does additional citric acid actually get used to dissolve CaCO3. So I think it would be too much.

 

[dz6t]

Randy, how about using citric acid solution instead of HCl?

The beauty of CO2 is that once you've used it to dissolve the CaCO3, it can be blown off to the air. Note that ALL of the CO2 added must be removed this way, and it is.

If you use any other acid, you must consider what will ultimately become of it. Citric acid will depress pH while there, and after being metabolized by bacteria to CO2, could be blown off. But the low pH and the consumption of O2 by bacteria to metabolize that citric acid would likely be a problem.

Note that you'd be adding even more citric acid, per unit of calcium and alkalinity delivered, than if you just dosed calcium citrate, because a good portion of citric acid will be added just to drive the pH down low enough to begin dissolve the CaCO3. Only then does additional citric acid actually get used to dissolve CaCO3. So I think it would be too much.

Very good analysis.

Thank you very much.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome

Happy Reefing.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

2 part

You have to set up 2 containers: one with part 1 and part 2. If you use 6 gallon containers, then you have to remember to fill them every week with RODI and mix in the ingredients for each bin.

I fill my reactor every 3 months or so which means that I do nothing for 3 months as far as alk and Ca are concerned. Much less work.

Now if you want to reduce your workload to the equivalent of a reactor (using your numbers) you would need to set up 2 larger containers, each around 40 gallons. No problem at all with this if you have the room. My reactor takes up much less space. A reactor provides "on demand ca and alk" whereas a dosing system must store enough of the constituents in liquid form to keep up with the ca and alk. This is why you do not need a monster reactor although the larger the tank, the more often you will need to top off the reactor. A reactor stores the alk and calk in solid form and liberates the required ca and alk as needed.

I remember I used to dose limewater using the aquamedic kalkreactor. It is a fine reactor and worked great but even with a reactor to dose for alk, I had to top off the kalk every week.

It is still faster than a calcium reactor.

Actually, it is not that much at all. Currently I use 0.75 gallon of each Two-Parts (formular 2) per week for a 125 gallon. Let say the monster tank is 500 gallon, that means 3 gallons per week.

Let's say double the consumtion for a extremely populated SPS tank, that is 6 gallon per week.

Formular two called for 1.25 cup of Dowflake per gallon of water, 6 gallon will need 10.5 cup of Dowflake per week. That is not that much at all. Also, by then all the powerhead will be jammed solid very fast.

 

[Dave McReeferson]

You have to set up 2 containers: one with part 1 and part 2. If you use 6 gallon containers, then you have to remember to fill them every week with RODI and mix in the ingredients for each bin.

I fill my reactor every 3 months or so which means that I do nothing for 3 months as far as alk and Ca are concerned. Much less work.

Now if you want to reduce your workload to the equivalent of a reactor (using your numbers) you would need to set up 2 larger containers, each around 40 gallons. No problem at all with this if you have the room. My reactor takes up much less space. A reactor provides "on demand ca and alk" whereas a dosing system must store enough of the constituents in liquid form to keep up with the ca and alk. This is why you do not need a monster reactor although the larger the tank, the more often you will need to top off the reactor. A reactor stores the alk and calk in solid form and liberates the required ca and alk as needed.

I remember I used to dose limewater using the aquamedic kalkreactor. It is a fine reactor and worked great but even with a reactor to dose for alk, I had to top off the kalk every week.

Yes, but if you are diligent in the maintenance of your Ca reactor, you will from time to time give it a thorough cleaning and flushing out correct? This is not necessary with a two part scheme. Mixing a new batch of two part entails no more than measuring out amounts, and filling the bucket with water, I bet I could refill my drums before you were even done fiddling with your thumbscrews. I think if you really took the time to measure the time and hassle of each system over a year spread, you would end up with a pretty level playing field over all.

 

[delta]

Yes, but if you are diligent in the maintenance of your Ca reactor, you will from time to time give it a thorough cleaning and flushing out correct? This is not necessary with a two part scheme. Mixing a new batch of two part entails no more than measuring out amounts, and filling the bucket with water, I bet I could refill my drums before you were even done fiddling with your thumbscrews. I think if you really took the time to measure the time and hassle of each system over a year spread, you would end up with a pretty level playing field over all.

Perhaps it is time to try a reactor Otherwise your just guessing, many people who use reactors have dosed and understand the ins and outs
of it. Plus time will tell where your phosphate issues came from if you continue to dose.

It is like the difference between naturally occurring food and processed food. Naturally occurring food such as pods and algae are part of the operation of the Eco system and processed food is like a added foreign impurities.

A reactor is part of the system, water flows through it and it becomes part of the Eco system where as dosing is an outside processed impurity.

Just my theory on it, but I believe any thing that we do should be part of the system if at all possible. Would you remove the water to run it through a skimmer and then put it back in the system?

 

[dz6t]

You have to set up 2 containers: one with part 1 and part 2. If you use 6 gallon containers, then you have to remember to fill them every week with RODI and mix in the ingredients for each bin.

I fill my reactor every 3 months or so which means that I do nothing for 3 months as far as alk and Ca are concerned. Much less work.

Now if you want to reduce your workload to the equivalent of a reactor (using your numbers) you would need to set up 2 larger containers, each around 40 gallons. .

The calculation is based on an extreme situation.

Now for a real life example:


Assuming the tank volumn is 180 gallon (by the way, on average, tanks are smaller)
The recommanded dosage per day is 2mL per gallon
that is 360 mL per day
6 gallon=22,800 mL
6 gallon can last 63 days (more than 2 month)

Let say you really want to jam your power head especially the return pump, you can double the dosage and 6 gallon can last you more than a month.

 

[dz6t]

Would you remove the water to run it through a skimmer and then put it back in the system?

If your skimmer is in a sump, then you are removing water (via the overflow) and skim it then put it back in the system via a return pump.

A calcium reactor is a nice piece of equpiment but sometimes the situation just won't allow it to happen.

There are stories of tanks got wiped out by faulty calcium reactors but I yet to hear a story that dosing two-parts damages a reef tank.

 

[delta]

If your skimmer is in a sump, then you are removing water (via the overflow) and skim it then put it back in the system via a return pump.

A calcium reactor is a nice piece of equpiment but sometimes the situation just won't allow it to happen.

There are stories of tanks got wiped out by faulty calcium reactors but I yet to hear a story that dosing two-parts damages a reef tank.

Well that is not what I ment would you remove it to a seperate system to filter it then return it to your main system.
The sump is still part of the Eco system

I never said any other system was not a viable option. I was making a point regarding judgments made regardless of experience with said item.

Well talk to the guy who started the thread about the damaging effects of over dosing your tank with two part. There is actually a link in this thread.
Every alk/calc buffering system has its risks, and every one of them can be devistating

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Reactor

I see your point. But I personally would rather spend an hour every three months or so vs worrying about filling my 2 part buckets every week. There is also the element of human error measuring the 2 part and filling the buckets every week or so. I have made such errors with similar weekly tasks and any task that requires a short period between such tasks, weather it is simply measuring and mixing or whatever, is more prone to human error.

I clean my reactor every time I refill it. It takes around an hour, or less, to both clean and refill my reactor.

For small tanks I can see the advantages of using 2 part. For larger systems there are so many more things to worry about on a daily, weekly, etc basis that automating as many things as possible becomes necessary, at least for me, so that I can spend the time doing other things like admiring my tank. There is also a larger requirement on space for top off water, sump, etc. So it gets to a point where space can get scarce. You also have to find a place to store the bags of Dowflake or whatever you use.

I don't claim to be an expert in 2-part use but somewhere I remember that adding calcium chloride over a long period of time is "not good" for some reason or other. But maybe that is only if you use it without the "other part" of a balanced 2 part solution. I also remember reading (when I was looking a calcium reactors back in the dark ages) that the cost of dosing 2 part far exceeds the cost of the media for the calcium reactor...but this was a while ago and may have changed.

Don't forget that dosing pumps need cleaning and maintenance as well.

Yes, but if you are diligent in the maintenance of your Ca reactor, you will from time to time give it a thorough cleaning and flushing out correct? This is not necessary with a two part scheme. Mixing a new batch of two part entails no more than measuring out amounts, and filling the bucket with water, I bet I could refill my drums before you were even done fiddling with your thumbscrews. I think if you really took the time to measure the time and hassle of each system over a year spread, you would end up with a pretty level playing field over all.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Example

My tank IS an extreme example. My total water volume is 500 gallons. As I stated before, 2-part may be fine for smaller tanks. But for large systems, I prefer a reactor to minimize the use of space, reduce weekly work, and to eliminate human error (Ca reactors are very forgiving as far as adjustments to control the amount of alk and ca).

The calculation is based on an extreme situation.

Now for a real life example:


Assuming the tank volumn is 180 gallon (by the way, on average, tanks are smaller)
The recommanded dosage per day is 2mL per gallon
that is 360 mL per day
6 gallon=22,800 mL
6 gallon can last 63 days (more than 2 month)

Let say you really want to jam your power head especially the return pump, you can double the dosage and 6 gallon can last you more than a month.