Aquarium Water Dialysis?

[Chuck Spyropulos]

I was searching for acrylic scratch remover kits when I foundthis contraption!
It looks like an RO/DI system and the vendor claims that part of it is....but that another part is "Artificial Human Kidneys" that are able to eliminate up to 75% of all water changes....I doubt it but posted it here for general conversation sake!

The vendor does have some acrylic scratch removal pads with magnets that allow you to both clean algae and buff out scratches inside your acrylic aquarium without removing water. I use Magnavores for algae cleaning...I also have a scratch removal kit that consists of several pads. I have succesfully removed large scratches with this kit, but not in combination with my Manavore magnets. I am sure that I could probably use these with my Magnavores and accomplish the same thing as this advertised product.


Dialyseas

 

[Greg Hiller]

This product has been around a long time. IMO there are better ways of maintaining a tank than attempting to use something this high-tech. IMO, there are several problems with the technology and the way it could be utilized in an aquarium. I do not know of any experienced reefers out there using this.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Dialysis

Yes, it has been around awhile and I know there are other ways and methods of performing aquarium maintenance (I am using such methods presently)....but my question is can the process of dialysis be applied to aquarium water filtration ? What are the problems that you eluded to in your response?

Practically speaking, this unit is REALLY too expensive, right now, that is. If it ever became more widely adopted, I'll bet the price would drop (if it really works ). Just because it is "high tech" and you "do not know of any experienced reefers out there using this" does not necessarily mean that it does not work. Many times experienced people (or know-it-alls ) are unwilling to change their ways, and, quite frankly, could benefit by trying out new products and/or systems or changing the way they do things.

I posted a quesion regarding this unit in the RC Chemistry Forum to pick Randy's brain. I will let everyone know his general thoughts.

This product has been around a long time. IMO there are better ways of maintaining a tank than attempting to use something this high-tech. IMO, there are several problems with the technology and the way it could be utilized in an aquarium. I do not know of any experienced reefers out there using this.

 

[Greg Hiller]

I seem to recall Randy and others debating this topic a long while back. It should be interesting to see if his opinion has changed.

I just don't see how the technology can be applied in a practical manner to reef aquaria. Before my original post I went to the site and could not see any info in which the technical aspects of the unit were described. I tried to read the patent, but couldn't follow it very well...too much legalese.

My understanding of dialysis is that you remove soluble low molecular weight components by allowing them to diffuse across a semipermiable membrane. In actual human dialysis you are trying to remove low molecular weight waste components like ammonia, or urea. To remove the components you must have a significant concentration gradient across the membrane, and therefore use significant quantites of fluid so that you can remove the components down to a low level.

Since ions like sodium and chloride are extremely small, and nitrate (one of the things we might want to remove from our tank water) is also extremely small I'm not sure how a technology that is based on molecular size would help. All ears though.

Don't get me wrong, if a high tech method that can be made cheap works, and works reliably I'm all for it. My problem with technolgies like this (I suppose) is that I have to be convinced from a scientific point of view prior to trying the technology. If it cannot be explained HOW it works, then it probably doesn't. I don't take kindly to snake oils or Coral-vital.

 

[nunofs]

I read their description on the site, and one thing strikes me as odd... the basic principle is that they're using a dialysis/osmosis process to have the waste and other undesirable stuff that's dissolved in the tank water migrate over to RODI water, which then gets discarded because it's contaminated with that waste... now, since they're generating and throwing out RODI water anyway, wouldn't it make more sense to actually feed that water into the tank (they have salt mixing and calcium supplementation capabilities already) and have the process work based solely on dilution? ie, adding RODI+salt while removing dirty water... basically an almost continuous water change.

Nuno

 

[Rob]

scratch remover

what did you find as far as scratch remover kits?

Rob

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Dialysis

It is not clear to me that they are using exactly 1 part DI water to filter 1 part tank water. In other words, the system may be capable of filtering 1 gallon of water, via dialysis, using less than 1 gallon of dialysate (DI water). Also, the article states that only a small amount of the salt is removed during dialysis, such that much less salt would be required as compared to a complete water change. FWIW, Randy, in the Chemistry Forum could not think of a reason why the unit would not work...but he is not convinced it can be more economical than water changes.

The big question is how much $ can you save on water and salt...and is it enough to offset the high cost of the system. It's not obvious that this would be the case given the unit costs $2700.00!

Doing complete water changes are more easily and more economically done with a supply pump and salt water source, and a drain pump both plumbed into your sump. I have succesfully calibrated two magdrive pumps to do automatic water changes using x10 timers controlled by my Aquadyne controller. First the drain pump turns on for 3 minutes (calibrated for 3 gpm) and then the supply pump turns on for 3 minutes (calibrated for 3gpm). Of course, you need to calibrate both pumps using gate valves to match the gpm for each pump...not very dificult to do using a 1 gallon container and stopwatch.

I read their description on the site, and one thing strikes me as odd... the basic principle is that they're using a dialysis/osmosis process to have the waste and other undesirable stuff that's dissolved in the tank water migrate over to RODI water, which then gets discarded because it's contaminated with that waste... now, since they're generating and throwing out RODI water anyway, wouldn't it make more sense to actually feed that water into the tank (they have salt mixing and calcium supplementation capabilities already) and have the process work based solely on dilution? ie, adding RODI+salt while removing dirty water... basically an almost continuous water change.

Nuno

 

[Greg Hiller]

>Doing complete water changes are more easily and more economically done with a supply pump and salt water source<

Indeed, FWIW this is what Randy does, but he uses the Reef-Filler double headed pump that works quite reliably for him.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Scratch

If you check around in that same site that sells the Dialyseas, they sell both magnets, cleaning pads, and scratch remover pads

what did you find as far as scratch remover kits?

Rob