ID on possible Bacterial bloom

[Pat02026]

I'll have to touch base with Lex, I bought it off him; I'm 99% sure he hand picked them from an event that Marc himself was a vendor.

Salt is I/O supplemented with The Randy's recipe. Mag is ~1280-1300 ca is 420 and all is lower than I'd like at 7.5Dkh. I am very slowly going to creep up to the 9dkh area, eventually but it's ok where it sits for now. There's only about 10 <2" frags, mostly stony corals and they're tolerating this nuisance. It doesn't appear to grow on any of the corals, or even attempting to smother any of them. It's just all over the rocks and sand.

I've yet to really perform any big water changes, since a ~30 gallon initial change after the cycle and only about 3-4 5gallon changes since. I have about 60 gallons worth of water to make this weekend and I'm going to perform a couple 20 gallon changes a week for the next 2-3 weeks to see if that helps.... I'm doubtful though;

Flow is huge; I'm running at minimum 500 gph turnover through the sump.
In tank flow consists of a wp40 running short pulse day and night. Then a wp25 runs from lights on to lights out at the opposite end of the tank. There is also a wp10 in the middle of the back glass next to the overflow that comes on running short pulse, in 30 min intervals. There's lots of flow in this tank for sure.

 

[JohnK]

Going by what little of the rock you can see in the pic it looks like the newer quarried rock.

 

[Pat02026]

Going by what little of the rock you can see in the pic it looks like the newer quarried rock.

I just pm'd lex for confirmation on that, but I'd agree it looks like the new stuff. I've still got some dry stuff I can dig out tomorrow and put up some pics here for ID.

Other thing in this tank that's out of the ordinary, in recent years anyway is there's a bag of Southdown sand under the sea floor grade sand. It's highly doubtful that it has anything to do with this but it's worth noting for the discussions sake.

 

[RichardinMA]

What I have figured out about dinoflagellates in my experience with them is that they seem to be fueled by something other than typical wastes, i.e. nitrate and phosphate, that will cause algae blooms. This is why doing water changes typically causes a boost in their growth, as it can replenish their food source. I don't think it is a contaminant, per se, but rather an element or compound found in at least one salt mix (IME), and evidently rocks as well. I did a large WC on two separate tanks using this mix and had the dino outbreak in both. The source water is the same on all my tanks and is used for topping off as well and I am not having problems in the rest of my tanks so I know that is not the problem. Interestingly, the dinos appeared in different forms in the two tanks affected. In one tank they appeared very similar to yours, looking more like gelatinous "crumbles" and also easily siphoned off, only to return. The other tank they appeared in they were darker in color and were more stringy and snotty. It took about 2 months for them to consume whatever that food source was and finally stop coming back after removal. No more WC have been done on these tanks yet and I won't be using the same salt again.

 

[ro_nicu]

What salt was that if you don't mind sharing?

 

[higorc]

What I have figured out about dinoflagellates in my experience with them is that they seem to be fueled by something other than typical wastes, i.e. nitrate and phosphate, that will cause algae blooms. This is why doing water changes typically causes a boost in their growth, as it can replenish their food source. I don't think it is a contaminant, per se, but rather an element or compound found in at least one salt mix (IME), and evidently rocks as well. I did a large WC on two separate tanks using this mix and had the dino outbreak in both. The source water is the same on all my tanks and is used for topping off as well and I am not having problems in the rest of my tanks so I know that is not the problem. Interestingly, the dinos appeared in different forms in the two tanks affected. In one tank they appeared very similar to yours, looking more like gelatinous "crumbles" and also easily siphoned off, only to return. The other tank they appeared in they were darker in color and were more stringy and snotty. It took about 2 months for them to consume whatever that food source was and finally stop coming back after removal. No more WC have been done on these tanks yet and I won't be using the same salt again.

+1 on getting a small Dino when doing water changes.

Every time I do a 30G WC (I use Reef Crystals), I get a little Dine outbreak. Not sure if it's the salt, but my RODI still testing 0 TDS. The Dinos usually last a few days then die out.



Higor

 

[RichardinMA]

What salt was that if you don't mind sharing?

I'm hesitant to post things like this publicly only because I don't want to risk criticizing a brand unless I know with 100% certainty, that it has an inherent problem. While I have repeatable results while using it, I still don't want to go so far as to say it is a brand that should be avoided. Perhaps there is something that I am overlooking. In this case, the brand I used was Kent. I have used others in the past and my preferred salt is IO because it mixes up to levels I find the most compatible with my systems and dosing practice. I have a few hundred gallon's worth of the Kent so decided to try to use it up and that is when I ran into the same problem I had in the past with the dinoflagellates.

I would also like to mention that many people confuse dinflagellates and diatoms, partly due to their similar names, and sometimes even appearance, however their cause and subsequent management is entirely different. Incorrectly assessing what you have will lead to frustration.

 

[Pat02026]

I keep bouncing back and forth between Dino and bacteria. I'm having a hard time narrowing it down. I vacc'd out a bunch more tonight, I'm going to attack it every 3-4 days and see if it starts to recede. I've only tried siphoning it out 3-4 times, and as I initially said it's come back with a bit more vengeance each time. I'm going to continue aggressive manual removal, and ramp up on water changes a bit for the next few weeks and see how it pans out. This stuff is ugly and I've been trying to keep it slow-n-steady with this tank, but I'm not ready to move onto anything drastic just yet.

 

[RichardinMA]

IMO- the water changes could be making it worse. When you siphon it out, are you adding new water or are you just using a filter bag to remove it? If what is fueling it is in the water, then it makes perfect sense that every tie you add more water (after siphoning it out), you are giving it a fresh meal, allowing it to explode.

 

[Pat02026]

When I siphon it out, I'm pulling it right into a filter sock in the sump until the sock loads up enough to overflow, then I stop. I can get through about 1/3 of the tank before that happens. Water changes have been minimal, there's a low bio load and no detectable nitrates so I've yet to get onto a weekly schedule since the tank was filled in November. Last water change was probably two weeks ago, and it was only 5 gallons in a 110 gallon system.

 

[RichardinMA]

It's a tough call when you're not there watching the tank on a daily basis, but I still suspect dinoflagellates and those are a real PIA to get rid of. I have always just had to wait it out until their food source was starved. I have never found that food source to be nitrate or phosphate and increasing wc/reduction of feeding had no effect. It is frustrating. If anything, I noticed that as soon as I started getting some algae growth back in the tank the dino's also disappear and do not come back. This is why I don't run an ULNS anymore. My color is better, too.

 

[SquareFace]

I'll give you the advice you don't want to hear. But, on the long run it will be the best choice. I started my tank just as you did. Dry rock and washed sand. I added some live sand and some small pieces of live rock to seed the tank. Then the tank was plagued by the "Mystery White Snot". No matter what I did, I could never get ready of it. For months I fought this plague waiting that it would eventually die. It didn't. Then a tragedy happened to my tank when I was on vacation. The whole tank died. I started over from ground zero. I had to wash everything in my tank including the rocks and sand. So, once more I started a tank with the same dry rocks and washed sand. I've got a piece of live rock from from Dong at this time, to seed the dry rock and sand. The tank is running great for almost 3 months now. No sign of any any snot, cyano or dinos. My conclusion is that whatever plagued my tank the first time was introduced with the live rock or live sand. At this time that I've got a live rock from Dong that was free of all these plagues, everything is going perfectly. So, the only good thing I've got from everything dying in my tank is that the plague also died. So, Since your tank is only 4 months old. You don't have much to lose. Remove your fishes and corals to a temporary tank. Making sure that you dip your corals before you do it. Then wash your rocks and sand. Making sure you kill the plague. That's only an advice though.

 

[SquareFace]

This is the "mystery white snot" in my tank.

 

[SquareFace]

This is how my tank looks 3 months after I started over without the white snot.

 

[delta]

When I siphon it out, I'm pulling it right into a filter sock in the sump until the sock loads up enough to overflow, then I stop. I can get through about 1/3 of the tank before that happens. Water changes have been minimal, there's a low bio load and no detectable nitrates so I've yet to get onto a weekly schedule since the tank was filled in November. Last water change was probably two weeks ago, and it was only 5 gallons in a 110 gallon system.

does it disappear after lights out and then re-appear when you turn the lights on? If so it is Dino and you need to work your PH up cut water changes and using anything like carbon or GFO. Then once you have about a week in on raised the PH siphon out what you can and kill the light for atleast 4 days. I mean No light, if you have to black out the windows or the tank itself even room light can feed it

Also make sure you RODI unit it making 0TDS water new DI or Double DI

 

[delta]

I'll give you the advice you don't want to hear. But, on the long run it will be the best choice. I started my tank just as you did. Dry rock and washed sand. I added some live sand and some small pieces of live rock to seed the tank. Then the tank was plagued by the "Mystery White Snot". No matter what I did, I could never get ready of it. For months I fought this plague waiting that it would eventually die. It didn't. Then a tragedy happened to my tank when I was on vacation. The whole tank died. I started over from ground zero. I had to wash everything in my tank including the rocks and sand. So, once more I started a tank with the same dry rocks and washed sand. I've got a piece of live rock from from Dong at this time, to seed the dry rock and sand. The tank is running great for almost 3 months now. No sign of any any snot, cyano or dinos. My conclusion is that whatever plagued my tank the first time was introduced with the live rock or live sand. At this time that I've got a live rock from Dong that was free of all these plagues, everything is going perfectly. So, the only good thing I've got from everything dying in my tank is that the plague also died. So, Since your tank is only 4 months old. You don't have much to lose. Remove your fishes and corals to a temporary tank. Making sure that you dip your corals before you do it. Then wash your rocks and sand. Making sure you kill the plague. That's only an advice though.

Sorry but this is bad advice it just sets you back to the beginning. He is better off figuring out what he has and how to deal with it. Or in 4 months he could be right back in the same situation or worse.

Sooner or later you will run into everything a reef tank can throw at you.

Not to say Dino's won't bring you to the brink of quitting but it is part of reefkeeping

 

[Coffee with Mango]

I am new to this hobby (1.5 yrs) but I recently did battle with a snotty tank. I still am not sure what caused the snot (also only in high light areas, also easy to suck out, etc. looks like your pics), but I made some changes that may or may not have led to its demise. I still see bits here and there but it doesn't bother me anymore. Three days of lights out did choke it out -- but only temporarily.

(1) removed the large bag of carbon in the sump area. nitrates had always tested non-existent and there was no nuisance algae associated with high organics, so I yanked it.
(2) reduced water changes -- from every five days to every seven or eight days
(3) put in polyfilter (never turned any interesting colors that might have pointed to a particular contaminant)
(4) raised alkalinity from 8 dkh to more like 10 and have kept it there.
(5) raised calcium to over 400
(6) added some hermits for the first time

It's very frustrating because I know it is still there waiting and lurking and since I don't know what the cause or cure was, it may come back any day!!

 

[RichardinMA]

The huge problem with dinoflagellates (other than it's mere presence), is that, while so many of us have been through it, no one has ever found a 100% repeatable way to quickly and permanently eradicate it. However, there are good reasons for this. There are some good articles out there that discuss it's management but the basic gist of it is that there are many different species that apparently establish in our tanks. They each may have slightly different "foods" that fuel their growth so determining what it is is very difficult, if not impossible. While they are photosynthetic, they can also be partially chemosythetic which makes them even more tough to eradicate via typical methods that may work on strictly photosynthetic organisms. What can be said with a pretty good degree of confidence is that they are NOT limited by nutrient such as nitrates and phosphates. In fact, the reduction of these compounds can often make the dinoflagellate "infection" worse. Some species seem to thrive in bright light while others may prefer less intensely lit spots (especially under high power LEDs). Flow rates are often irrelevant. Raising pH has worked in some situations but failed in others ( including mine). I tried raising my pH to 8.7 for over a month and there was no discernible effect.

My latest battle with them started right after I did a large water change which I suspect gave them a major dose of whatever compound my species likes to "eat". It took a couple months but they eventually fizzled out over a period of a week or so. Such a rapid decline suggests to me that the food source was finally exhausted. The thing that makes this so difficult is that there is no right answer for what will work in everyone's tank. Considering how variable all of our tanks are, and the sheer number of species of dinoflagellates that could possibly live in them, it should not be surprising that so many people can have such different results. Therefore, you often get keepers debating what works and what doesn't when it really just boils down to the fact that one thing does not work for everyone because we are not all dealing with the same exact thing. IMO, I think all anyone can do is try the various techniques that others have found useful until they find one that works for them. I have been lucky in that any of my infections in my tanks have only lasted a few months before dying out on their own. Granted, I was doing plenty of vacuuming during that time as well. To make matters worse, in some cases, I suspect people may not have accurately identified what actually led to the demise of the dinoflagellates (very easy to do) which adds even more confusion and frustration to the battle.

 

[Pat02026]

Thanks Richard, for the time you've taken to give your input. I will not be resorting to breaking down the tank. That's crazy. There's a lot going on in this system in comparison to any of the marine tanks I've had in the past; it's bigger, and much more sterile, so there's things I am anticipating but not expecting going on. As I've been going with, I'll ride it out for a few more weeks to see what happens, and not break out of the pattern of what I've done in the past with successful systems. I would like to hope that this isn't Dino that I'm dealing with, and merely some sort of massive bacteria bloom that will just disappear.
Greg, this does not seem to free float and reattach in a light cycle like a typical Dino scenario.