LED Optic assist

mordibv

Non-member
I removed the Optics from my led unit . These are 80 degree optics . What kind or brand do I order to replace them with ? They come from a manufactured unit . I have tried to contact Sunbrite for the change out to 60 degree to no avail . 3 months is long enough .
They have a recessed lip so when the beveled cover goes on the leds are held in place .

Here is what they look like .

TIA

photobucket-4156-1318779113607.jpg
 
probably carlco, also it looks like they are for the xr-e or large domed led. there are bunches around, depending on the height you need you might be able to take them out of the individual optics for the xr-e

you can try dealextreme, boostled, cutter, maybe digikey or future eletronics
 
the optics narrow the beam, you don't have to use optics at all
is your purpose to strengthen or narrow the loss?
 
the optics narrow the beam, you don't have to use optics at all
is your purpose to strengthen or narrow the loss?

+1^^

why are you wanting optics? what are the dimensions of your tank and what is the layout of the LED array?
 
Yes, what size tank is this again? I think you said 20x20x10? If the LED is right off the surface you probably don't need optics, but if you want to maximize PAR at certain depths for example, you could use optics. Also, I think you said though your up 7 inches above the surface? So, a little less than 17" from light to sand? To maximize the PAR, 60 or 80 degree would certainly work as long as you have enough LEDs to give even coverage.

Here is more than you'll ever want to know about LED optics.... It's all basic math, but still gets a bit complicated and needs to be generalized in some way.

First, assuming your considering PAR, not Lumens, then optics are what give leds their advantage over halides really. So, I'm all for optics when they are beneficial. Essentially, given total 400-700nm light output, without taking into account focusing of light, halides are still potentially more efficient than the current LEDs on the market. However, LEDs can be quite a bit more efficient if used to optimize the spread of the light.

If you really want to optimize your tank, you can calculate the spread of the lens angle at a given depth. First, though, remember this is the total area of illumination, the light will not illuminate the entire area evenly. It will be brightest in the center and then get progressively dimmer. However, wherever the leds overlap, the PAR will sum and as the PAR decreases with depth, it decreases in relation to the coverage area (not much light is actually filtered out at the depths of our tanks, it diffuses). So, for example, if the coverage area doubles, the PAR is roughly cut in half.

So, for example, if your tank is 20x20x10 and your light is 7" over, by the surface, i.e. @ 7 inches, your already covering a 24.25" circle, plus the size of the fixute, (as this is for each led). At the bottom, say 17-2" sand bed = 15", with 120 degree optics, you'd be covering a 51.96" +6"=57.96" circle. However, this gets complicated because when the light hits the glass, some will be reflected back. Every time the light reflects, you'll loose about 10-20% though. Also, you'd have roughly 30.25" of coverage at the surface of the water, as your light is 7" off the water. So, on a 20x20 tank, you'd already be losing a fair amount of light before it even gets to the tank. If your good with matlab or something you could model this, but otherwise, some generalized rule is probably somewhat necessary.

Probably a simple way to estimate what is needed is to reduce the total coverage area by some fraction. Just as an example, Evilc66 on nanotuners for example recommended once, that for their PAR bulbs, which also use CREE leds, that you reduce this area to 75% of the total for estimation. So, if your goal is to maximize PAR and cover 20"x20" completely by mid tank, and your fixture is 6"x6", then if you subtract the footprint of the fixture, you'd have 20-6=14" x 14" coverage needed at mid tank per LED. So, to maximize PAR, we need to find the angle that covers 14" at mid tank 7+(10/2)=12" the best (or instead of midtank, could use the bottom or top, or wherever you want to maximize the PAR if you use higher though, PAR will be lower, below and if you use higher, PAR will be lower above etc...).

So, at 12", (from the table below), 80 degree optics would cover 20.14" or 60deg would cover 13.86". So, reduce these by some factor, we'll use 25%, then you have 15.1" and 10.4" respectively. Then add the 6" footprint of the fixture, and we have 21.1" and 16.4" total. So, 80 would be about right at exactly this depth. 60 would have higher PAR in the center, but you'd have lower PAR to the edges, but the trade off would be that you'd have higher PAR at the bottom. Does that make sense?

For comparison, with no optics, at 12" you'd be covering a 41.57" area , or if we reduce by 25%, then a 31.2" area. Again, though some of the light would be lost before getting to the tank and some of the light would be lost when it hits the side of the tank.

Also, at any depth you'd have less PAR to begin with as the light would be more diffuse.

For example:
Compared to the 80 degree optics you'd have divide the area of a 20.14" circle by a 41.57" circle, multiply by 100 and that would be the proportion of PAR of 120degree optics vs 80 deg.

Or compared to 60 degree optics you'd have only a 13.86" circle /41.57" as far as PAR goes.

So, @12" 120 degree optics would only have about 23% of the PAR of 80 degree optics or 11% of the PAR of 60 degree optics.

Again, some light would bounce back off the glass, so, you would be a bit higher than 23% and 11% respectively, but not my huge factors. Your still loosing a lot of efficiency because your covering a larger area than needed. The moral of the story is, you can really increase PAR by optimizing the optics. Too much isn't good either though of course. A laser, puts out a lot of PAR, but won't cover the tank well; you need balance.


For reference, here is a a spreadsheet of total coverage (in inches) of common optical angles from 1-30" height.
Edit: sorry it got crunched and I don't have time to fix it, but each space lines up with each column heading.

inches 120deg 80deg 60deg 40deg
1 3.46 1.68 1.15 0.73
2 6.93 3.36 2.31 1.46
3 10.39 5.03 3.46 2.18
4 13.86 6.71 4.62 2.91
5 17.32 8.39 5.77 3.64
6 20.78 10.07 6.93 4.37
7 24.25 11.75 8.08 5.10
8 27.71 13.43 9.24 5.82
9 31.18 15.10 10.39 6.55
10 34.64 16.78 11.55 7.28
11 38.11 18.46 12.70 8.01
12 41.57 20.14 13.86 8.74
13 45.03 21.82 15.01 9.46
14 48.50 23.49 16.17 10.19
15 51.96 25.17 17.32 10.92
16 55.43 26.85 18.48 11.65
17 58.89 28.53 19.63 12.37
18 62.35 30.21 20.78 13.10
19 65.82 31.89 21.94 13.83
20 69.28 33.56 23.09 14.56
21 72.75 35.24 24.25 15.29
22 76.21 36.92 25.40 16.01
23 79.67 38.60 26.56 16.74
24 83.14 40.28 27.71 17.47
25 86.60 41.95 28.87 18.20
26 90.07 43.63 30.02 18.93
27 93.53 45.31 31.18 19.65
28 96.99 46.99 32.33 20.38
29 100.46 48.67 33.49 21.11
30 103.92 50.35 34.64 21.84
 
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Also BTW I forgot to mention somewhat obvious issue about light bouncing off the glass, that a lot of people seem to forget. If the light bounces off, say the back glass and hits a rock, it isn't effectively back in the tank as the back of the rock has now blocked it's path. So other than diffusion, there are reasons wider optics don't work as well in deeper tanks. I just wanted to mention this since I noticed certain people, including certain manufactures, use light reflecting off glass as a selling point for wider optics. In an empty tank there may be something to it, but most of our tanks aren't empty.


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LOL wow this thread went off course pretty quick. Can you measure the diameter of the optics? And then convert that into mm? That's sort of critical to beginning the process of figuring out what replacement optics you might be able to use. You'll want one's of course that can snap back into the holders.

Then you could measure the opening that the emitter goes in and compare that to some spec sheets for xr-e, xp-e, xp-g and see what looks closest. I agree that Carclo is probably the best place to start in terms of looking for something that will work. If you identify a few candidates, you could order some samples to test with before you go all in.

BTW I'd recommend ripple optics over frosted. The diffuser pattern on your stock ones is interesting. Not sure what to think about that.
 
LOL wow this thread went off course pretty quick.

Sorry, I think my comment in another thread is part of the reason why mordibv wanted to change optics to begin with. When I looked again at the numbers, 80 looked pretty good for his tank actually, so I thought some more elaboration (or confusion depending on how you look at it :) ) was in order...



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I'm not sure if that was what the original poster was looking for, but thank you inverted for that wonderful information. it seems we have found our optics expert!
 
Thanks for the responses .
I need to change the optics for par . The fixture serves me no purpose since the spread is too wide and like a few have stated I am wasting light . The fixture is 17 inches from emitters to SB .
The optics you see are 80 degree fitted onto XPG and XPE emitters .They came with the fixture . I was under the impression they may be Carlco but was unsure . The leds are on a 9 x 8 circuit board with a heatsink .
I would love to keep the unit but if I cannot fit 60 degree optics to increase the par and efficiency it will have to benefit someone else with lower light requirements . I also have it up for sale on this forum and another .If anyone is interested in offering a reasonable price for it I will let it go . Keep in mind the nano is a 20 x 20 x 10 cube for grow out purposes of my SPS collection .It is a temporary tank until I move from this location and upgrade back in tank size . I refuse to set up a large tank , only to move it within 6 + months or even a year .Imho SPS tanks do not mature/ take off until after a year or so of running . I cannot lower the light any more since I do not want to have the unit sitting in any water . It is braced above my external overflow so it does not get wet or inhibit the overflow .

Inverted thanks for the spread sheet . It does confirm that the optics would need to be at least 60 degrees to benefit my situation .I was pretty sure I was on the right track since I requested the optics upgrade from Sunbrite over 3 months ago . I got decent, not great colors / growth on SPS with the LED unit . Unfortunately without the newer optics my 250 LB with a Helios bulb smoke the led unit in growth / color and par by quite a margin .
Inverted in reference to the red sps coloration issue . I do not test for K . I do add it in addition to water changes via NF metals added to the tank once a week . Just a thought ... Is red coloration ph related ?
Any more feed back is greatly appreciated .


See how wide the spread is in this older pic when the tank was cycling . U gotta admit that's a lot of wasted light

DSCF1273.jpg
 
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These are the nubs I am trying to keep thriving . This pic does have the additional 25 I added recently .

photobucket-4594-1317442971010.jpg
 
LOL wow this thread went off course pretty quick. Can you measure the diameter of the optics? And then convert that into mm? That's sort of critical to beginning the process of figuring out what replacement optics you might be able to use. You'll want one's of course that can snap back into the holders.

Then you could measure the opening that the emitter goes in and compare that to some spec sheets for xr-e, xp-e, xp-g and see what looks closest. I agree that Carclo is probably the best place to start in terms of looking for something that will work. If you identify a few candidates, you could order some samples to test with before you go all in.

BTW I'd recommend ripple optics over frosted. The diffuser pattern on your stock ones is interesting. Not sure what to think about that.


No harm done . I just got reminded of my math skills since I had to take a entrance exam for school . All scores were in the mid to upper 90's including math , except the 49 I got on Algebra .LOL . I don't remember that stuff .

Maybe I wasn't clear so here's another attempt . :)
Those optics do not have holders like the DIY you buy . They sit over the led loosely . The optics have a recessed lip on them . The cover plate is beveled so it holds the leds in place when the plate is screwed back on . When you remove the cover plate the optics will just fall all over the place if you bump them . I will try to measure them later on . I put the unit back to together since I do not want dust or accidents to happen.

This is what the internals of the unit look like . The white board is the circuit board . I did not get nosy to try to remove it to look underneath . U can also see the driver . It is the green board on top of the white board .

photobucket-5463-1318779126651.jpg
 
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Sure thing, no problem on the spread sheet.

RE:
.

Inverted in reference to the red sps coloration issue . I do not test for K . I do add it in addition to water changes via NF metals added to the tank once a week . Just a thought ... Is red coloration ph related ?
Any more feed back is greatly appreciated .

Have you read Dana Riddles coral coloration series in AA? I don't think he talks about red much unfortunately. At least other than this article on red fluorescence (off the top of my head, I don't remember anything on non-fluorescent red though unfortunately).

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/4/aafeature1

As far as red flourescence goes, he does say
"Effects of pH on DsRed Fluorescence and Apparent Color

Baird et al. (2000) state that the DsRed fluorescence emission (from Discosoma) is insensitive to pH over a range of 4.5 - 12, and has a high quantum yield (0.7) at or near a pH of ~8.8. However, pH shifts within the coral tissue could conceivably cause a change in perceived coloration since absorption (excitation) maxima are caused by pH modulations - the wavelength absorption maxima falls from 558nm to 526nm as pH becomes lower."

As for non-fluorescence, it sort of depends on whether or not pigment is being produced and then if so, on the lighting. Assuming the coral is producing pigment (you can check by moving to different lighting known to have red) The warm white CREEs have a fair amount of red, the cool whites, not so much. So, if the manufacture used all cool white, non-fluorescent red may not show that well. Also, complimentary colors will make colors look brown. So, if they are using blue LEDs, instead of royal blue, this could possibly make the red look brown, as the complimentary color of red is cyan and I believe the CREE blue LEDs have a lot of cyan.

Colors are always tricky as its a combination of physical and perceptual effects. Also, Dana talks about color mixing with red florescence in the article.
 
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@ inverted .....Yep , were way off track now . LOL .It's my fault for not pm'ing u about the earlier chats .I have not kept up with Advanced Aquarist articles or any other publications .

I can say The leds are indeed 10 XPG cool white with 4 XPE RB and 4 XPE B .
I am going to to make a few phone calls . I just can't fathom the thought that 20.00 of optics can make or break a fixture . It appears to be the case in my situation . I just hope I can remedy it .
 
Good news ......I hope .
I called the vendor where I got the Sunbrite unit . They advised they would let let SB know as they sorta remembered my request .
I then got an email from the Sunbrite . He should have the 60 degree optics in a few days to ship out to me .
PHEW ..
 
how many do you need? I have this fixture illuminating my work bench and three of the bulbs dont work. i took it apart once and it has very similar free-floating optics to the ones you described. you are welcome to them if you want to test them.

btw...inverted...thank you for all the useful information on optics. i have worked with LED fixtures for nano tanks quite a bit and never dabbled too much with optics because the light is usually so close to the surface (less than 2").
 
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