Anyone interested in DIY Surge Bucket (flap valve)

[ScooterNH]

Guaging interest in a group DIY project.

I just built a surge bucket for my 90g tank, and (after a good bit of experimenting) got it working pretty nicely I think.

Right now it's still in my basement utility sink (testing away before putting it in place), but if others are interested, I'll document it a bit, take some pics, or movie, maybe even build a second one to show at a meeting or something.

The basic concept is based on plans I found from Aquatouch
http://www.aquatouch.com/surge_b.htm
I ended up modifying to use standard toilet floats and other parts.

Counting the bucket, I'd estimate it's under $10 in parts.
Let me know if interested.

 

[RichConley]

How's the noise on this thing? Thats the usual problem, the initial glurg when they fire. Any luck getting rid of that?

 

[NateHanson]

I'm very interested. Let's see pictures!

My question is the same as Rich's - noise?

 

[ScooterNH]

Glurg - Whoosh - (slap)

How's the noise on this thing? Thats the usual problem, the initial glurg when they fire. Any luck getting rid of that?

There's a glurg. But I was just happy to get it to work. I've only been testing it in a 5g bucket over my utility sink so got to hear all the noises as I was adjusting it. My materials strayed so much from the original design that I had to re-work it a few times to get it right. My floats are much more boyant and it seems to cause the motion to go real fast and likely extra noise (ah hindsight!).

I'd wager that it's too noisy for a living room. But then again, this is for the tank in my basement that will eventually be faced with doors and trim, and this will soon be mounted above and behind my main tank. I don't think it's gonna be a big deal, but that's me.

Though your question does remind me that it would be smart to mount a convenient switch for it's pump so that my wife can turn off the operation if she wants to.



Most of the sound is from the initial float release and the rush of water out of the toilet sized drain (2" - 2.5" or so). OK, so it's like a toilet flushiing!

In my tests, it's a very splashy sound (and well generally "splashy") if the output is released above the water level. Wouldn't want to be doing that anyway probably. I didn't time it, but it's 4-5 gallons dumped out in about 5-10 seconds (guess). But that's with it wide open. It's much quieter when the outlet is under the surface. I've played around with reducing the output, and that makes everything flow out slower and quieter as well.

There's a definite noise when the main float gets tipped and comes popping up with the swing arm fast. Not sure how to even begin to avoid that. Also a little klunk when it all falls back into place and bit of a slap maybe when the flap valve closes again completely. OK so "noise" wasn't a concern at the time!

If I can scrounge up a video camera I'll try to take a movie action shot and post it somewhere.

 

[ScooterNH]

Surge Bucket pictures

Here's some pictures of the Surge bucket. One in the down position, the other with the floats and swing arms up. One more trip to Home Depot and I should be ready to connect it in a few days.

The lower float stays down vertical (slightly back) as the bucket fills, once the water level moves the upper float, the arm pushes the lower float out of vertical and it swings up opening the flap.

 

[skatezen]

Definitely interested!

 

[S Hunter]

Lets see more...

 

[PyroJon]

That design can be greatly simplified by tying the float directly to the flapper valve. Shorten it to about 3 or 4 links on the little plastic chain.

You can basicly eliminate all of the noise and bubbles by setting the toilet flapper valve as close as possible to the top of the water level in the tank.
This will eliminate the air in the plumbing and with it the noise created when the surge dumps. You will only hear a slight bump when the valve is pulled. All this at the expense of velocity.

I have a pair of surges on my system that are currently setup this way.
Each one dumps about 26 gallons in 2 minutes, with a 1 min 15 second pause between dumps. This equates to almost 800 gallons per hour flow rate with each surge, from each surge.

A surge is a super simple device that will create turbulant random flow at random times flawlessly for years with very little maintenance or tinkering.

A closed loop has more benefits over a surge in terms of simplification, water velocity, space required, noise, etc... However a closed loop will just about always provide laminar flow which in most cases is not ideal.

Between the two maybe it just comes down to wheather you want random water movement or high velocity?

I'm using both at the moment.

 

[ScooterNH]

Revisions

I had tried an early variation with the float pulling the flapper directly, and the problem that I found was that it never filled or released most of the water in the bucket, but would instead get sort of stuck on a short-cycle filling/releasing in little bursts. I'll have to give it some more attempts.

Forcing the main float down vertically and levering up with the other float does seem to work, but I agree it's more complicated. Can you post some pictures of how yours works?

I've also noticed that you can greatly effect the fill/release cycle by changing your output. If you reduce from 2" to 1.5" it's pretty much an instant full dump which may be more than desired. Alternatively if you reduce down to 1", you'll get a small initial burst followed by a long steady flow. Too long in fact. But the point is you get very different results depending on the output and back pressure.

I've been experimenting with a piece of black drain tubing (a stiff plastic), I mostly tried using it because it was black and not as noticeable in the tank as white PVC. I cap the end and drill various hole patterns down (more like a shower head) down the length of the tube. I've tried a bunch of variations, ad number of holes and diameter are the influencing factors.

All in all I like the bucket design but I have two nagging problems :
1) I have it suspended above and off to the side of the tank. I am not in love with this situation because of the possibility of draining my tank if any of the plumbing works loose. I'd much rather have it directly over the tank (but lights are in the way). Still working on placement. I might be able to pull it off to hang over something with overflow back into the sump.

2) Not really much to do with the bucket, but again more of a placement issue. 2" PVC from the flapper drain is fairly clunky to work with. I have it set up now with a 2" turn-release, coupled to an "S" of elbows down and back up over the side of the tank, and reducers etc just add more length to the PVC work as it goes to the tank. I certainly need to streamline my awkward 'plumbing' a bit.

Other than that it seems to function, and the noise really isn't bad at all. I eliminated the "float-hitting-the-side-of-the-bucket" noise by gluing and piece of sponge to the float.

 

[PyroJon]

I had tried an early variation with the float pulling the flapper directly, and the problem that I found was that it never filled or released most of the water in the bucket, but would instead get sort of stuck on a short-cycle filling/releasing in little bursts. I'll have to give it some more attempts.

Sounds like you covered the vertical pipe, it must remain open at the top or you will get the "bouncing" flapper valve effect.

Forcing the main float down vertically and levering up with the other float does seem to work, but I agree it's more complicated. Can you post some pictures of how yours works?

I've also noticed that you can greatly effect the fill/release cycle by changing your output. If you reduce from 2" to 1.5" it's pretty much an instant full dump which may be more than desired. Alternatively if you reduce down to 1", you'll get a small initial burst followed by a long steady flow. Too long in fact. But the point is you get very different results depending on the output and back pressure.

You get a faster dump with 1.5" pipe then with 2" pipe? I would expect the opposite.

I've been experimenting with a piece of black drain tubing (a stiff plastic), I mostly tried using it because it was black and not as noticeable in the tank as white PVC. I cap the end and drill various hole patterns down (more like a shower head) down the length of the tube. I've tried a bunch of variations, ad number of holes and diameter are the influencing factors.

Interesting. I currently am not using any kind of device to direct the flow, just an open end. I'm using 1-1/4" pvc (you can paint with Krylon paint btw, so I hear) now. I am swapping out the tank for a new one this weekend and was thinking about making some changes to the surges at the same time. I may go with 2" as I expected it to give more flow, ie a faster dump. I was also considering using a length of pipe in the water, caping the end and cutting a slit down it's length, to try for a sort of "sheet of water" effect.

All in all I like the bucket design but I have two nagging problems :
1) I have it suspended above and off to the side of the tank. I am not in love with this situation because of the possibility of draining my tank if any of the plumbing works loose. I'd much rather have it directly over the tank (but lights are in the way). Still working on placement. I might be able to pull it off to hang over something with overflow back into the sump.

2) Not really much to do with the bucket, but again more of a placement issue. 2" PVC from the flapper drain is fairly clunky to work with. I have it set up now with a 2" turn-release, coupled to an "S" of elbows down and back up over the side of the tank, and reducers etc just add more length to the PVC work as it goes to the tank. I certainly need to streamline my awkward 'plumbing' a bit.

Other than that it seems to function, and the noise really isn't bad at all. I eliminated the "float-hitting-the-side-of-the-bucket" noise by gluing and piece of sponge to the float.

I have two surge buckets, they are made from rubbermaid storage containers, about 18 gallons each. I estimate that they fill to about 10 gallons (maybe more) before dumping. I calculated that as the surge is dumping another 16 gallons of water is pumped in before the valve closes, making my total surge around 26 gallons, per surge bucket. I feed the two buckets from the same pump and because of a million variations the two surges go at different times, sometimes the same time, most times not.

I would invite you to come by and see it all in action but my house/reef is a total mess due to the fact that my tank recently cracked and I'm hustling to replace it before it flys apart and dumps 180 gallons of salt water on my couch. The new tank will be the same size but glass instead of acrylic. Because the tank has different "center" braces I need to make changes to my lighting setup and because the new tank will hopefully have external overflows (cutting slots in the back of the tank) I have to change all the plumbing around as well, so the surges will get changed around.

Anyway, try the simpler surge setup with just the float attached to the flapper. You may have to add some extra ballast to the flapper, like a hunk of styrofoam to the valve or the ball to help it pull the valve. The only limitation on the ammount of water you can dump will be the height of that pipe on the flapper valve assembly, but you can always make it taller. Just leave it open.


Good luck
Jon

 

[JBendel]

I 've been playing around with the first design on and off since Sunday and had the same problem mentioned above.

"Sounds like you covered the vertical pipe, it must remain open at the top or you will get the "bouncing" flapper valve effect."

mine is covered... time to get the drill out.

Thanks

 

[ScooterNH]

Correction

You get a faster dump with 1.5" pipe then with 2" pipe? I would expect the opposite.

Oh no I just meant that I reduced the 2" opening from the flapper to 1.5" and that combination flowed very quickly. Pretty much a full dump. I didn't see much difference between the output of the 2" and the 1.5" both were fairly unrestrictive.

I was also considering using a length of pipe in the water, caping the end and cutting a slit down it's length, to try for a sort of "sheet of water" effect.

That's pretty much what I did with the pipe with the holes. I had even thought about doing some slits as you mention. Might still try that.

My pipe is about 8" and I've capped the end and drilled holes in a line. I ended up making 3-4 variations and still haven't really figured out which I like best. I drilled too many holes in the first one (about 1/2 of the area of the pipe) it just sort of 'dispersed' the water with no real direction at all to the surge. Other variations were more directional. I think the trick is to start with less holes (or slits) at first, give it a try and add more if needed.

I'd originally tried a PCV "T" and used several dark gray PVC elbow nozzles (reduced further to 1") so I could aim the flow where I wanted. This as just a bit too "clunky" in the tank for my tastes. The capped tube with some holes can give a similar directional efffect in a smaller footprint.

I have two surge buckets... ..I feed the two buckets from the same pump and because of a million variations the two surges go at different times, sometimes the same time, most times not.

That sounds very cool. I was thinking of having 2 alternating buckets eventually. Figured I'd get the kinks out of just one going right first.

Thanks for all the input.

 

[ScooterNH]

I 've been playing around with the first design on and off since Sunday and had the same problem mentioned above.

"Sounds like you covered the vertical pipe, it must remain open at the top or you will get the "bouncing" flapper valve effect."

mine is covered... time to get the drill out.

Thanks

Oh if we're talking about the same piece. (the vertical tube that the flapper is attached to), it's important to leave it open (see in my pic that I drilled a large hole in the "T" at the top). Leave it open so that if some reason the flapper fails (broken plastich chain or whatever), the water will rise to that inlet in the tube and drain out from below the rubber flapper.

 

[Kevin McG]

I am interested for sure, noise really isn't to much of an issue for me. I wish I had some time to read this whole thread........

 

[PyroJon]

I drilled too many holes in the first one (about 1/2 of the area of the pipe) it just sort of 'dispersed' the water with no real direction at all to the surge. Other variations were more directional. I think the trick is to start with less holes (or slits) at first, give it a try and add more if needed.

I'd originally tried a PCV "T" and used several dark gray PVC elbow nozzles (reduced further to 1") so I could aim the flow where I wanted. This as just a bit too "clunky" in the tank for my tastes. The capped tube with some holes can give a similar directional efffect in a smaller footprint.

To be honest this is not what you want with a surge. IMO most the benefit of a surge is to get random flow patterns. Dumping a bunch of water into the tank will create alot of crazy random flow paterns especially when interacting with other flow patterns. You definatly don't want to direct the flow in a particular direction, that defeats the purpse.

If you want that I would suggest a closed loop. Simpler and less prone to problems.

Good luck
Jon

 

[ScooterNH]

Closed Loop?

You definatly don't want to direct the flow in a particular direction, that defeats the purpse.

Then I've figured that one out with the tube and all the holes ;-) Alternatively, just directing the full open flow toward the liverock or one of the sides seems to do the same.

If you want that I would suggest a closed loop. Simpler and less prone to problems.

I guess I'm confused over what a closed loop is. Does it start and stop? or is it a constant flow in one direction.

I've been trying for a periodic wave/surge ebb and flow pretty much across the length of the tank. I can manage to get it to go about 1/2 way then it all sort of just dissapates. Softies at the opposite end of the tank don't really sway from it but things in the middle do.

 

[PyroJon]

A closed loop is simply a pump that pulls water from one point in the tank and pushes it out to another. Much the same way as a power head would only the pump is external so you don't have to see it, and it can be alot more powerfull then your basic power head.

You can turn the pump on and off if you want, you can even redirect the output so it directs water in one place then another and back again.

The thing that makes it very different then a surge is the fact that it's powerfull single directional flow. (Laminar Flow)

A surge can give you lots of flow but they tend to be less powerfull but lots of volume. (Lower velocity higher volume) They also tend to give you more random movement, which is more natural then constant laminar flow from one direction. Most corals don't like laminar flow.

That is where the wavemaker came in. Turning your pumps (powerheads, closed loop whatever) on and off, or otherwise changing the direction that the flow is coming from is an attempt to lessen the laminar flow problem. IMO they all fall short which is why I tried surges. Unfortunatly corals like random flow but also powerfull flow and surges tend to fall short in the power category.

Currently I am working with both closed loops and surges. The closed loop provides lots of powerfull water movement while the surge interacts with that (every couple of minutes) creating random currents and such.


Now, if you want more realistic wave motion you might want to look at a Tunze Wave Box. I actually thought of a device just like this a couple of years ago but didn't want it inside the tank and couldn't think of a good way to do it externally without drilling big holes near the bottom of my tank that was full of water.

The wave box is simple. Imagine a box, inside the tank, with the top open and above the water surface. At the bottom of this box is a tunze pump protruding slightly through a hole in the side. The tunze is on a timer that turns it on for a few seconds then off for a few. When the tunze turns on it very quickly pumps the water out of the box forcing it into the tank and creating a wave across your tank. Then the tunze turns off and water flows back into the tank (through the tunze) creating a wave in the other direction.

I have seen a tuze wave box work pretty well in a 5' tank you can really see the wave action. It's not cheap though.

 

[JBendel]

I built an inline with two pumps that that shared the same input and output ... only reversed. Then alternated the pumps .... I still got a lot more flow with a single Tunze (turbelle w/controller... not wave box).

I am hoping a surge will get more flow behind the rock work.

 

[PyroJon]

That is interesting. I assume that you switch the pumps on/off opposite of each other, so the direction is reversed with each cycle?

 

[JBendel]

Yes ... I started with two pumps in the standard inline config., but after time the inputs kept clogging , ... I reworked it ..so switching the inputs/outpus .. they cleared themselves and tried to setup a push-pull effect, but at the end ... still not a lot of random flow.