End of The Fish Stocking Road / Large Angels

Matt L.

Non-member
Okay, as promissed from a while back, I wanted to bring up the topic of large angelfish in a reef aquarium...

I know that some local members have succesfully kept large angelfish (i.e., angelfish other than the Centropyge sp. dwarf angels we are more accustomed to) in their reef aquarium.

This came as a suprise to me, as I had come up through the hobby with the notion that large angelfish were wildly reef-unsafe. After researching on the web, I have found this to not necessarily be true.

In fact, I also came up through the hobby with the notion that certain dwarf angels were most likely to tear your clams and corals to pieces, but now on my second dwarf angelfish, I have also found this to be untrue, both from my own experience and from the experience of others in the club. Based on the size and habits of the large angelfish in question here (none of them happen to be planktonovores), I realize that they are a greater risk, but I ask how much of a risk, and more importantly, to what? My tank is predominantly SPS with some Tridacna sp. clams. If the hypothetical angelfish I choose is only unsafe around LPS corals, then I shan't have much to worry about, right?

Based on all of this, I feel like I have additional options with regards to what many traditionally call the centrpiece fish of the tank.

My tank is 90gal, and I had in my mind which fish I wanted to add and in what order to start. I have two black false percula clownfish, a flame angel, and a copperbanded butterfly. All seem to be doing very well. I figure I have room for one large fish, and maybe one more medium-sized fish.

The medium-sized fish (that will need to be added before the large fish) will be saved for a separate discussion, and I was considering maybe another butterflyfish...

Anyhow, back to the large (a/k/a centerpiece) fish, the thought all along was to try a Poweder Blue Tang. Because of my lighting and other fish, I really wanted the centerpiece fish to be blue or mostly blue in colour. I cannot buy another Pallette tang after my fish died during the tank move. That fish meant a lot and even though its personality was always too skittish for my liking, I just can't replace it.

I know Powder Blues can be aggressive, and I have always been fascinated by large angelfish, so I want to give them due consideration. Therefore, for the large fish, I found only the following fish to be remotely acceptable in terms of: 1) their maximum size (10" or less), 2) Reef Safety, and 3) desired colouration:

The Powder Blue Tang:
marinedepotlive_1823_13153277

Notes: The reef safest and bluish, but concerned about the "hyperactive" swimming pattern of tangs and aggression.

The Majestic Angel:
marinedepotlive_1823_456688

Notes: Although not all that much blue, the colouration is still ideal to me. Many have kept with success. I am concerned about outgrowing of the tank, and my clam mantles.

The Maculosus Angel:
marinedepotlive_1823_10576855

Notes: From what I read, one of the hardiest angelfish, and definitely blue. Less ornate than the Majestic Angelfish, and also apparently is a less active swimmer, but I have hear reports of it growing to 10" or even 12" which might make it too big.

The Regal Angel:
marinedepotlive_1823_2875497

Note: I just thought I would throw this one in here. I think it is a heartbreakingly beautiful fish, but just that, heartbreakingly. Accounts of people being able to keep these fish alive are few and far between.

Okay, that should be enough to get the discussion going,

Matt
 
Matt, I'll have the same inverts in my 125: SPS corals and clams.
The powder blue will likely be the last fish I add, but it's the one I want most.
I'm thinking about a dwarf angel too.
I'm gonna tag along on your thread and hope it develops.

Please describe your experiences, folks! :D
 
The Goldflake Angelfish (Apolemichthys xanthopunctatus) is very nice but also very expensive and not blue. But nice and some members have had them in a reef with no ill affects.

angelgoldflakesm1400.jpg
 
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I got a 125g started as a FOWLR I had a Lemonpeel, Flame & Pigmy angels.When I started adding Polyps and zoos.They didn't seem to do well and even dissapeared sometimes.Noticed Lemon really hitting a shroom hard so int the sump with him.week later stuff dissapeared So Flame in the sump.Now everything seems to do good.I really hated to get rid of them.Maybe if you add them after all your corals they will have to much to pick from and they won't prey on one thing.Other people have these fish in there reefs,maybe it just depends on the fish.
 
Well, my 125g at some point in the future will become a softie & "FO"wLR tank. I have a Sailfin tang, he will go in the "big" tank (I think).
I just added a Hippo Tang
The Maculosus Angel is very nice looking...I like the blue
But the fish I want....regardless...is the Imperator Angel -Pomacanthus Imperator
The wife wants a Queen angel......
 
Just be aware that many people have had problems with CBBs dying after more agressive tankmates were added, or grew big enough to be a problem. Not the case for everyone (like anything in this hobby) ,but I've heard enough of it to be cautious.
 
denvig said:
The Goldflake Angelfish (Apolemichthys xanthopunctatus) is very nice but also very expensive and not blue. But nice and some members have had them in a reef with no ill affects.
Yeah, I had considered one. My main concern was the high cost, and that a high cost might infer rarity in the environment. I believe Goldlfake angels are basically the safest of the large angels. If I see one in person, and the price is right, I might be swayed...
Flighty said:
Just be aware that many people have had problems with CBBs dying after more agressive tankmates were added, or grew big enough to be a problem. Not the case for everyone (like anything in this hobby) ,but I've heard enough of it to be cautious.
That's a good point, and one of my concerns over the Powder Blue Tang, although Angels can be "bossy" (not sure about their outright aggression). I had considered getting the angel young when I do get it, and give the CBB time to adjust... I'll look into the matter further...
Moe_K said:
I'm thinking about a dwarf angel too.
I'm gonna tag along on your thread and hope it develops.
I have had no problems with my dwarf angels around SPS or clams, and I believe that in a large tank like a 125gal, you can pretty safely add a dwarf and large angel as long as the colours are dissimilar,

Matt:cool:
 
Matt L. said:
I believe Goldlfake angels are basically the safest of the large angels. Matt:cool:

Goldflake angel is in the family of Apolemichthys. Any species from that family should be just as safe as goldflake. The difference is that goldflake is prettier and has more desirable market value than its cousins, except Griffisi, Kingi, and Armitagei angels which are much rarer in the market.

Most large angelfishes don't consume corals in the wild, according to the study from their stomach content. However, Chaetodontoplus are more likely to consume coral polyps than other families. The family of Pomacanthus, i.e. Emperor, Majestic, Asfur, etc. and the family of Holacanthus, i.e. Queen, Passer, Rock beauty, and etc. are most sponge/algae eaters. That makes them less likely candidates to consume corals in the captivity. However, because of their size and strength, they can easily tear apart the tissue of a stressed clam even though they don't intend to eat the clam. The family of Genicanthus are smaller than either Pomacanthus and Holacanthus and they are planktonvores. By definition, they are the safest so-called large angelfishes you can find for captivity. However, their relatively dull color discourages a lot of reefkeepers from pursuing them.

There's always a risk associated with hosting large angelfishes in the reeftank. I've heard/seen many stories about success/failure with various large angelfishes, so I really can't come to the conclusion to guarantee 100% of their behaviors in captivity. If you really want one in your reeftank, pick one then risk. The reward can be great.

BTW, I wouldn't put either Pomacanthus or Holacanthus in a 4 feet long tank, in that they can easily grow over 10 inches. Especially the giant ones like Maculosus angels that can max out at 18 inches. It won't be fair for them.
 
Might want to look into an Asfur Angel. They stay relatively small compared to some of the giants listed (Mac, emp). They are mostly black but have a deep purple on their head with that bright yellow stripe going down the middle of the body. Like a Mac but IMO far better looking. The Mac as stated will grow far too large for a 90. The Navarchus would be a good choice. Many on RC are keeping them in reef tanks with no problems.
Regals tend not to ship well and have a low survival rate in captivity. There are a few that do keep them though.
If you plan on upgrading the tank later on to something larger, you may want to look into Emperors. Nothing beats their personality. I have a large one (see avatar), although not in a reef tank.
best of luck
 
Majestic Angels: Notes: Although not all that much blue, the colouration is still ideal to me. Many have kept with success. I am concerned about outgrowing of the tank, and my clam mantles.
.

FWIW, so far my majestic is behaving and didn't touch anything. I think they are safe with SPS. I have mix reef tank from softies to sps and so far he hasn't touch anything. I don't have meaty lps like open brain etc.. which are at greater risk.
I have two clams and so far he hasn't looked at them. I think if you keep them well fed then chances are they won't go after it. Their color is amazing. If you want to make a trip to Saugus to take a look at my Majestic, let me know. It's worth looking before you make any decesion. Also they grow very slowly and they are one of the smaller angels and they are not that active swimmer as tangs so i think he will be fine in your 90 for atleast few years. Also if you decide to get him then get him in small size around 2-3 inches. I read that if you start with smaller ones then you might have better chance with corals.
Not mine but i found this pic on web:

photogallery.jpg



I have also kept powder blue tang. They are very very aggressive. He killed my copperband butterfly by starving. He didn't let this poor fish out of her cave. If you decide to get powder blue then add it as your last fish.
 
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Hi Matt - have you considered the genicanthus family?
I have both a male and female genicanthus semifaciatus (masked swallowtale angels) and they don't even LOOK at the corals. But, I am not sure if a 90 gallon would be big enough for them. They are gorgeous creatures and have terrific personalities. I also have a goldflake angel. The most beautiful and well-behaved fish. This goldflake has been known to nip at LPS, but I don't have many in my tank.
Look at the genicanthus. ... you won't be sorry. :)
Paula
 
Nocturnal said:
Might want to look into an Asfur Angel. They stay relatively small compared to some of the giants listed (Mac, emp).

I thought Asfur angels max out at 45 cm, 17+ inches.

I saw a Pomacanthus Emperator(10") and a Holacanthis Limbaughi(10")in an outdoor reef tank(500 gal??) in Waikiki aquarium about a month ago. The tank was packed with thick SPS. Neither of the angels seemed interested in the corals. I suspect that Holacanthus Limbaughi was newly introduced because the Emperor angels, along with a few other tangs, has HLLE, while the Clipperton Angel didn't have it. My conclusion: Waikiki Aquarium really doesn't know how to keep fish in captivity.
 
Angelfish

Fingolfin said:
Goldflake angel is in the family of Apolemichthys. Any species from that family should be just as safe as goldflake.
Thank you for breaking this down by genus. That makes it a lot easier to sort through all the different angelfish, even though I'm used to a bit different taxonomy (perhaps I am out of date?). So to start, we'll say genus Apolemichthys is okay.
Fingolfin said:
The difference is that goldflake is prettier and has more desirable market value than its cousins, except Griffisi, Kingi, and Armitagei angels which are much rarer in the market.
There are two primary reasons that I feel that I regrettably cannot look further into the more attractive members of the family Apolemichthys: 1) cost and 2) rarity. To me, collecting a rare fish from the wild is not something I can resovle with my conscious as easily as taking a common fish from the wild. Also, the ones that are attractive (Call me shallow, but the body shape and colouration are very important to me) tend are of course the most expensive. I do find the Goldflake very attractive, though, and if I ever saw one for a good deal...
Fingolfin said:
Most large angelfishes don't consume corals in the wild, according to the study from their stomach content.
Very interesting. I keep meaning to buy a book on marine angelfish but for the time being resort to the Internet.
Fingolfin said:
However, Chaetodontoplus are more likely to consume coral polyps than other families.
Good to know. We'll strike genus Chaetodontoplus off the list.
Fingolfin said:
The family of Pomacanthus, i.e. Emperor, Majestic, Asfur, etc. and the family of Holacanthus, i.e. Queen, Passer, Rock beauty, and etc. are most sponge/algae eaters.
So on paper, genus Pomacanthus and Holacanthus are less like to be coral consumers. We'll keep the size acceptable ones from those on the list. For those reading along, from what I gather, Euxiphipops is a subgenus in Pomacanthus.
Fingolfin said:
That makes them less likely candidates to consume corals in the captivity. However, because of their size and strength, they can easily tear apart the tissue of a stressed clam even though they don't intend to eat the clam.
I realize my clams are the most likely target. Thankfully, they can always be moved to the other system should the going get rough.
Fingolfin said:
The family of Genicanthus are smaller than either Pomacanthus and Holacanthus and they are planktonvores. By definition, they are the safest so-called large angelfishes you can find for captivity. However, their relatively dull color discourages a lot of reefkeepers from pursuing them.
Yeah, for me too... The only exceptions would be the watanabei and masked swallowtail angels, the colouration of the former being "enhanced" in many photos, in my opinion. Could a male/female pair be kept in a 90gal system? We can surely keep them on the list, but they are again often rare
Fingolfin said:
There's always a risk associated with hosting large angelfishes in the reeftank...
I know. I am prepared to take that risk, and I feel being mostly an SPS system, I am fairly safe, especially if I consider a genus that is on the safer side. I feel like a stereotype was made up until a few years ago, where all large angelfish were uniformly dismissed as reef unsafe. I don't think that is fair to them or the hobbyist, and I would like to pursue the truth on the matter. Chances are, some are reef unsafe, and some are reef safe, and many are varying shades inbetween. Sometimes, you need to be a trail blazer and take some risks.
Fingolfin said:
..., pick one then risk. The reward can be great.
The potential reward is exactly the reason I am inquiring.
Fingolfin said:
BTW, I wouldn't put either Pomacanthus or Holacanthus in a 4 feet long tank, in that they can easily grow over 10 inches. Especially the giant ones like Maculosus angels that can max out at 18 inches. It won't be fair for them.
Definitely. I think I had some bad information on the Maculosus. I am wondering if there is some bad information out there about the Asfur as well, as I see often conflicting size reports, where either the Maculosus or the Asfur are listed at a maximum of 10" or 12", and the other is listed as 18". Are they both larger (18")? For the time being, Maculosus is off the list.

Thank you for your detailed reply,

Matt:cool:
 
Nocturnal said:
Might want to look into an Asfur Angel. They stay relatively small compared to some of the giants listed (Mac, emp)....The Mac as stated will grow far too large for a 90.
Yeah, Fingolfin just commented on this as well. I think there is a discrepency out there. I would actually have preferred an Asfur over a Maculosus, but I had the maximum size of an Asfur at 18", but then I found a source that said 12"...:confused:
Nocturnal said:
The Navarchus would be a good choice. Many on RC are keeping them in reef tanks with no problems.
You know, I kind of like these. I hadn't seen them before. Not quite the colouration I was going for, but the prices are more reasonable then their cousin the goldflake, and definitely one to put on the list.
Nocturnal said:
Regals tend not to ship well and have a low survival rate in captivity. There are a few that do keep them though.
Yeah, that's what I've heard. I'm not sure I really want to get into keeping a fish that is made out of rice paper.
Nocturnal said:
If you plan on upgrading the tank later on to something larger, you may want to look into Emperors. Nothing beats their personality.
Yeah, they are a dream fish for the future, and I keep saying this is the largest tank for now (I am now on my third system: 20L, 55, and now 90), but you never know... If an Emperor would stay a reasonable size for 3 - 5 years in a 90gal, I would look into it. Otherwise, I can't do that to a fish.
Nocturnal said:
I have a large one (see avatar),
Nice pic.
Nocturnal said:
best of luck
Thanks,

Matt:cool:
 
Does it come in First Class on the Airplane

denvig said:
How about one of these? Watanabe's Lyretail Angelfish
(Genicanthus watanabei)
If that wasn't that the male, the more attractive one, was $295 at the Marine Center when available, I would be on board. I'm sure they are out there for less, but it gets into that whole rarity and cost thing...

Matt:cool:
 
Matt L. said:
Also, the ones that are attractive (Call me shallow, but the body shape and colouration are very important to me) tend are of course the most expensive.
Matt:cool:

Well, you are not alone. Isn't the superficial beauty of the coral reef/fish what got us into this hobby at the first place?

This Apolemichthys Kingi is one of the rarest angelfishes in the market. I heard that it's not uncommon in South Africa. If you are willing to travel to South Africa then go collecting by yourself, you'll get youself the beauty.
 

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Fingolfin said:
Well, you are not alone. Isn't the superficial beauty of the coral reef/fish what got us into this hobby at the first place?
Yeah. You're absolutely right.
Fingolfin said:
This Apolemichthys Kingi is one of the rarest angelfishes in the market. I heard that it's not uncommon in South Africa. If you are willing to travel to South Africa then go collecting by yourself, you'll get youself the beauty.
I am a certified diver, and the fact that the fish is common in the wild makes it more likely that I would consider keeping it, but I certainly can't afford to go anywhere now.

After all this help, I think I am going to go with a small/medium sized Majestic (3" or a little larger).

Matt:cool:
 
Matt L. said:
After all this help, I think I am going to go with a small/medium sized Majestic (3" or a little larger).Matt:cool:

How about Apolemichthys Arcuatus? It doesn't grow behind 5-6 inches in length.
 

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