LFS Maintaining Livestock in Hyposalinity Good or Bad?

[JackTheReefer]

I am posting this in regards to LFS practice of maintaing fish in hyposalinity; I understand the advantages (LFS attempt to maintain fish health and reduced cost relevant to salt) of this practice but I do not agree with it; in my opinion it is like the equivalent of taking a antihistamine, it suppresses the problem, does not cure it; I don't believe fish are kept long enough at LFS for this practice to fully achieve its function; I also think it creates more stress for the fish when you attempt to acclimate them into a reef enviroment or more natural marine enviroment; I understand the practice of hobbyist using a quarantine tank but still think it does not remedy the underlying problem that the hobbyist may inevitably have to combat; I personally think hyposalinity is a disservice to hobbyist; marine fish come from a enviroment with specific conditions and that is what they should be maintained at; I think it should be the LFS responsibility to provide healthy livestock and if that requires the LFS to quarantine their livestock and uphold their wholesalers to a higher standard so be it; we wouldn't buy a sick hamster, cat, dog ect.; I understand this would have an impact on the price of livestock but I think in the end it would lower mortality rates and ultimately be cheaper for the consumer; I think we have a good understanding and plenty of knowledge as to what we are keeping and believe it would be a step forward to conscientious fish keeping.

 

[saltwaterB]

I think it should be the LFS responsibility to provide healthy livestock and if that requires the LFS to quarantine their livestock and uphold their wholesalers to a higher standard so be it.

I understand this would have an impact on the price of livestock

Now, while agree with much of what you are saying. I also have to strongly disagree with several comments (such as these) Without knowing the industry side of it, it is very hard to make blanket statements. Also, this and these types of issue have been beat to death by consumers and industry people for years.

You really do not quite grasp the impact this would have on the aquarium industry. I do not think anyone does. Now I agree 100% that this should be done as an industry whole, but this will never happen. If the "proper" steps where taken all along the way, the price of the end product would be way out of reach for 90% of the hobbyists. and at that point the industry would collapse.
The biggest problem will end up being on the wholesale level. Many of them run their systems at a lower salinity, and you will never get them to change this. The best luck you will have to impact this is on the LFS level.

As it is, most people are not willing to pay a small additional charge to guarantee that the livestock was treated properly and QT properly. The customer purely wants to pay the cheapest price possible. Many times with disregard to the quality of product they are getting. I see it all the time. Sites and stores get lots of praise because their prices are good. When in fact the quality of product is much less than others that may charge a bit more but sure as heck have a much better product.
1 good example is to look at the old Marine Center. com Brian would QT everything for at least 2 weeks before selling it. But in turn his prices are quite a bit higher than much of his competition. But he had a better quality product to start, and then QT's it, on top of that. Then gets bashed for being overpriced (hence he is no longer in business)

This is a very touchy subject for both hobbyist and industry people.


There are many good shops and online companies that are trying to make the right changes, without it devastating there business. But this is a hard one to do.


FWIW
I would never recommend keeping a store system that is sold out of at hypo-salinity. As said, too much stress on the fish having to acclimate it to a much higher salinity.

-B-

 

[JackTheReefer]

Now, while agree with much of what you are saying. I also have to strongly disagree with several comments (such as these) Without knowing the industry side of it, it is very hard to make blanket statements. Also, this and these types of issue have been beat to death by consumers and industry people for years.

You really do not quite grasp the impact this would have on the aquarium industry. I do not think anyone does. Now I agree 100% that this should be done as an industry whole, but this will never happen. If the "proper" steps where taken all along the way, the price of the end product would be way out of reach for 90% of the hobbyists. and at that point the industry would collapse.
The biggest problem will end up being on the wholesale level. Many of them run their systems at a lower salinity, and you will never get them to change this. The best luck you will have to impact this is on the LFS level.

As it is, most people are not willing to pay a small additional charge to guarantee that the livestock was treated properly and QT properly. The customer purely wants to pay the cheapest price possible. Many times with disregard to the quality of product they are getting. I see it all the time. Sites and stores get lots of praise because their prices are good. When in fact the quality of product is much less than others that may charge a bit more but sure as heck have a much better product.
1 good example is to look at the old Marine Center. com Brian would QT everything for at least 2 weeks before selling it. But in turn his prices are quite a bit higher than much of his competition. But he had a better quality product to start, and then QT's it, on top of that. Then gets bashed for being overpriced (hence he is no longer in business)

This is a very touchy subject for both hobbyist and industry people.


There are many good shops and online companies that are trying to make the right changes, without it devastating there business. But this is a hard one to do.


FWIW
I would never recommend keeping a store system that is sold out of at hypo-salinity. As said, too much stress on the fish having to acclimate it to a much higher salinity.

-B-

I hear you and understand this is a touchy subject; the point I am trying to make is that the aquarium hobby has made great advances whether it be the understanding of what we are keeping or the advancements in technology that enable use to better keep or prized specimens alive and healthy; I just think this is a overlooked segment of the hobby; as to people not willing to pay a few more dollars for healty livestock and support conscientious fish keeping I think would be selfish; my post was in no way an attack at any LFS, just a perspective of the trade in general.

 

[saltwaterB]

That is primarily my point.
That this is an issue industry wide, and getting it to change (unfortunately) is practically impossible.
And, I think that you are way way off thinking that it would only be a FEW more dollars that would have to be charged.
One of the only things that keeps prices as low (yes I said AS LOW) as they are is the fact that most of the industry operates on the "in one day out the next" philosophy. Getting importers and wholesalers to change the way they do business this drasticaly will probably never happen. Any time I have mentioned it to people in LA, I am basically laughed at.

Trust me, probably much more than most people in the industry, I hear what you are saying. And would love for these types of changes to occur in this industry, but don't see it happening (on the wholesale level) Many of the better stores and online stores are already practicing very good holding, QT, and screening techniques.

I think the biggest obstacle with proper QT on the commercial level, is the fact that to do it 100% "the right way" stores/wholesalers would have to have many many large systems. And this is both economicly and physically impossible for most to do.

-B-

 

[stingythingy45]

The short and simple answer is,YES,I would buy from a store that has fish in Hypo.Do I think that hypo reduces ich populations in LFS.....Yes!
Do I think that you are a bit lacking in the understanding of the Ich cycle...Yes.
Btw,do you inspect a cat,dog,hamster or what have you for fleas when you purchase?How about if the dog had heart worm..huh?
Can these animals act like they don't have anything at certain times?
In a CAPTIVE system it is very easy to get the parasite into a system.
All you need is cross contamination....a drop of water will do it.
Once there you don't just simply put a hex on it an banish it to hades.
So does a LFS close it's doors to the public if the tank is infected?
Why do you think some stores have massive UV sterilers?
If they're treating the tank though they should let you know about it!
They say that running hypo on fish for an extended period of time will damage the fish's kidneys.

 

[reefsmurf]

I agree mostly with B.

I just wish we could just propagate alot more livestock instead of pulling it from the ocean (at least the clowns and bangghais are doing well in that regard)

 

[JackTheReefer]

The short and simple answer is,YES,I would buy from a store that has fish in Hypo.Do I think that hypo reduces ich populations in LFS.....Yes!
Do I think that you are a bit lacking in the understanding of the Ich cycle...Yes.
Btw,do you inspect a cat,dog,hamster or what have you for fleas when you purchase?How about if the dog had heart worm..huh?
Can these animals act like they don't have anything at certain times?
In a CAPTIVE system it is very easy to get the parasite into a system.
All you need is cross contamination....a drop of water will do it.
Once there you don't just simply put a hex on it an banish it to hades.
So does a LFS close it's doors to the public if the tank is infected?
Why do you think some stores have massive UV sterilers?
If they're treating the tank though they should let you know about it!
They say that running hypo on fish for an extended period of time will damage the fish's kidneys.

First off I don't want to turn this into an arguement with anyone so please don't take my next statement to heart; I think you a naive to think the only thing I was talking about was ich; there are many other parasites/flukes fish may harbor/host and a temporary reduction in salinity will do nothing for them; do I think it reduces ich populations YES! but one thing I know is that a couple days in hyposalinity will not cure ich; in general we as hobbyist and the professionals are more than aware of problems that can arise with certain species of fish; some fish are prone to certain things and some are not; what I am trying to get at is that there are medications and treatments for specific things that are far more effective, not just a drop in salinity; I was not going to put the analogy of the other animals in but I did; I know it is apples and oranges and not comparable on the same level; I just do not think a drop in salinity is the end all answer, it is a temporary attempt at a cure; in regards to dogs and cats I have two Bengals a Ragdoll and a Jack Russell Terrier [hence the name] and most certainly the same day they were purchased they were taken to a veterinarian and given thorough examinations; I will aslo agree with you 100% as to fish coming down with something in a captive system, there are many variables; I am not trying to gloat or make myself sound important trust me I know im nobody but I have successfully kept freshwater/brackish/marine aquariums for 22 years and reef aquariums for the last 12 years, I have also worked in the industry; I am aware of the multitude of problems aquarium shop owners can be faced with and by no means am I knocking them, they work very hard for the little money they make; I am also aware that people are always working on new methods to improve the hobby and that we still have a lot to learn; It is my opinion we are selfish in our ways and we could improve our techniques, it does not have to be overnight; I am putting my soap box away, Im feeling like I never should have started this thread.

 

[stingythingy45]

"Im feeling like I never should have started this thread."

No,don't ever say that,Jack.
Debate is good,and I probably expressed myself a little too strongly.
You bring up some good points.

 

[saltwaterB]

No, I have to agree with you (as in many points before) There is no problem with posting a thread like this. It raises awareness of sensitive issues that face all of us as hobbyists.(and some of us as professionals) There are always going to be at least 2 sides to every story and situation. And what better venue to get multiple opinions than the BRS.

You also bring up some very valid and true points, as well. Hypo is definitely not a cure all for most of the things that end up killing our fish. In fact probably not going to work fast enough on some of the worst offenders (flukes, brooklynella, vibrio,etc) and with "ich" temporary hypo will do no more than a FW dip. So, I would definitely have to agree that running a store system at Hypo can really do no good (*IMO*) for anything, and possibly could cause more harm and stress. (especially on certain more sensitive species) Unless the store has multiple systems and and can run the fish through at least a 45-60 day cycle. (which no one does) Now there are ways around this and alternatives that many stores could and should be doing. but I am not about to give any intellectual property out to anyone.

That is why the number one rule to eliminate problems is to QT all new livestock for 6-10 weeks. This may seem like a whole lot to do, and it is. But the only other alternative is to weigh the risk of not QT. Now in some cases this may be the easier and more feasible way to go. It all depends on the situation.
Example:
when I started in the hobby, I was told and read to have a QT. But with just a 75gal fish only, and no space or money. I said "ah, no way, I am all set." Yeah, I lost some fish, I kept some fish. But as time progressed in the hobby, I had more time and money invested. I soon realized the value of having a good QT setup (and lots and LOTS of patience) Now I wouldn't do it without one.
But, I have a friend with a 40gal. breeder. She has no room or money for a QT. what to do...what to do. Her only option is to be very very selective on her fish. Buy something that has been in a LFS for a couple of weeks, make sure its eating well, make sure physically looks good. And even then it is all a risk as to what it may bring in.

No need to put your soapbox away.

-B-

 

[JackTheReefer]

Thanks guys,

I think there is a happy medium out there; it just seems to me like the purchase of a fish includes some false security; as you said B, if I can call you that, it really hurts the people that cannot afford it or do not have space for a quarantine tank; we stress keeping livestock under certain conditions, and we purchase them under completely different conditons; I was just thinking out loud it has been a topic that has benn on my mind for some time now; I guess that is why we love the hobby!

If it was easy cavemen would do it.

I promise the soap box is going away now.

 

[JohnK]

I think this is a great topic to bring up. IMO it's very good to have a discussion on this, if nothing else, then just so that more people will be aware of this issue/concern/fact.

One thing that I don't think much has been mentioned though is what we / LFS's define "hypo" as. For an effective treatment the SG needs to go way down, 1.008 ish. On the other hand, from what I've been told by different LFS people over the yrs, it's quite common to run tanks at more like 1.017 ish to "reduce ick concerns", or "make life harder for ick". (I suspect that that semi-hypo approach may well help to keep many many fish alive long enough to survive long enough to make it to the hobbiest)
IMO it's a very important distinction for two reasons. First, acclimating a fish from 1.017 is very different from acclimating from 1.008. Second, thinking the 1.017 fish "should be free of ick" would be very misleading. (IMO assuming anything is misleading but that's another story.....).

Good topic for discussion, and great topic to raise awareness of IMO.


Edit, forgot to say;
I didn't vote in the poll part because my feeling is that, much like B more or less said, the WAY THINGS ARE NOW this sort of thing may well be necessary to keep a lot of fish alive long enough to get into hobbiests hands. From there, it's up to us to either carefully QT, observe, and treat if necessary, OR not be so careful with the organisms (or investment if you want to look it that way).

 

[stingythingy45]

For the LFS semi-hypo is a win...win.
The reduced amount salt they need to use and under hypo many fish display a very relaxed disposition.And if any parasites can't cyst,even better.
Lately,like over the past 3 months,I've been checking the bag water SG with every new purchase.

 

[RayD]

Look at the voting results! Looks like a presidential election. Right down the middle.

 

[stingythingy45]

Look at the voting results! Looks like a presidential election. Right down the middle.

Did Ralf Nader announce that he's running a LFS with tanks that are totaly green yet?

 

[RayD]

Did Ralf Nader announce that he's running a LFS with tanks that are totaly green yet?

LOL!

 

[JohnK]

For the LFS semi-hypo is a win...win.
The reduced amount salt they need to use and under hypo many fish display a very relaxed disposition.And if any parasites can't cyst,even better.
Lately,like over the past 3 months,I've been checking the bag water SG with every new purchase.

To me, (as things are in the industry and how consumers function) it may well be a win win for everyone. The LFS will save $ on livestock that doesn't die, and the reefer will get fish healthy ENOUGH that they will survive if cared for properly.

I'd guess that if things did change and we were able to buy fish and be 98% certain that they were disease free, we'd be paying $125 for yellow tangs, $50-100 for clowns, and $200 plus for anything that goes for over $40 now.

If LFS's and the whole industry chain in general totally did away with things like this, maybe many many more fish would die and the quality of the available livestock would go down while prices went up?


I figure it's up to the hobbiest to be careful about selecting their fish and treating them responsibly when they bring them home.

 

[RayD]

Did Ralf Nader announce that he's running a LFS with tanks that are totaly green yet?

LOL!

EDIT: OOOPS sorry for the dupe.

 

[Arthur1]

Jack, I have worked retail for years, I love freshwater fish, overpriced koi, planted aquariums, marine fish as well as corals and also inverts for both fresh and salt. Whether you keep your fish in hyposalinity or just adjust them to it, it is beneficial to the fish as well as the acclimation of fish. They may not be in a hyposalinity holding tanks long enough to kill parasites but botton line is and is proven, that it is less stressful on the fish and thus have a higher survival rate. Its also better to temporarily lower the ph in the system when they are recieved. There is a lot of biology as well as chemistry that goes along with this that I'm not going to dive into. Our advances in technology are only going to get us so far in our acclimation of fish species, which it so far has led us to much understanding and then in turn lets us make the best decisions on what to do with the new arrivals. So do not shun any LFS if they are actually doing the most they can to eleviate stress on the fish. You would be suprised at how enduring fish really are and what they are subjected to from point A to their final destination.

 

[saltwaterB]

For the LFS semi-hypo is a win...win.
The reduced amount salt they need to use and under hypo many fish display a very relaxed disposition.And if any parasites can't cyst,even better.

Now if you are talking about semi-hypo, that is completely different case. And yes, very beneficial for the LFS, and possibly the fish. But the title of the thread and poll is "LFS maintaining livestock in Hyposalinity" (1.008) This is a completely different situation than semi-hypo. As a matter of fact most LFS will run fish only systems at 1.017--1.020. And I see nothing wrong with this as long as they inform the customer of the situation. But to swing in and out of true hypo-salinity, will not do any fish any good what so ever. In fact it will surely do the exact opposite. Again, the key to less stress is stability.

-B-

 

[stingythingy45]

Now if you are talking about semi-hypo, that is completely different case. And yes, very beneficial for the LFS, and possibly the fish. But the title of the thread and poll is "LFS maintaining livestock in Hyposalinity" (1.008) This is a completely different situation than semi-hypo. As a matter of fact most LFS will run fish only systems at 1.017--1.020. And I see nothing wrong with this as long as they inform the customer of the situation. But to swing in and out of true hypo-salinity, will not do any fish any good what so ever. In fact it will surely do the exact opposite. Again, the key to less stress is stability.

-B-

Hyposalinity is adjusting the salinity of the water to somewhat less the that of natural sea water. "Hypo" comes from Greek and means under or below.
Also there's been a couple of recent threads talk about a particular LFS keeping SG in the 1.017 range.