questions about Carbon dosing , nitrates and PO3 limiting

[reefstarter]

so I am starting some vinegar dosing , been tossing around the Idea after seeing some threads here and talking to people . Some just hinted at it others gave some in depth guidance . I am now very curious since I found my Nitrate levels high . I usually run GFO and PO3 is as low as I can get it like around .08 . I have heard that adding PO3 in small amounts can help kick or re-start the denitrifying process of bacteria . I have a fuge with cheato that as of late is growing like crazy . so I guess that means its eating up nitrates and such . I want to try and avoid running GFO and nitrate removal media as much as possible ( I don't use nitrate reducers as yet ) any tips or advice out there ? I was thinking start dosing at about 12-15 ML a day for a week or so then jump it up 5 or 6 ML a week till reaching 40-45 ML a day . My system is a 90 gallon mixed reef with 30 gallon sump fuge , 6 buld T5 reef Octo skimmer That pulls out nice black gunk

 

[dannyp02908]

good article that helped me when I started. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/

Make sure your skimmer is in top notch order and can handle your tank size. Start slow. The article has a chart that shows the dosages to use (it is for vodka dosing but it is commonly accepted that you can multiply the dose by 8 for vinegar). In order for this to work, you need to have nitrate and phosphate present as the bacteria you are trying to grow utilize all 3 (nitrate, phosphate, organic carbon with the carbon usually being the limiting factor in denitrifying bacteria). If you decide to stop for any reason (equipment failure, not for you, etc) ween the system off. Don't just quit. Careful not to overdose. It can be catastrophic. If you have more questions, feel free to ask me. I have been carbon dosing since I set my tank up.

 

[JohnK]

If anything nitrate often becomes the limiting factor when employing carbon dosing for nutrient control. I would say just start slowly and only ramp up the vinegar dose very slowly and cautiously. Systems vary so it's hard to predict an ideal dose of vinegar. Better to ramp it up very slowly and watch the system to see how it responds. Also there is a good chance that you will end up starving out that cheato, and if that happens it will take a while and things will take time to shift around and settle into a new equilibrium.

 

[dannyp02908]

I shut my fuge down when I started vodka. I know that once the vodka took hold, N and P dropped very quickly and stayed down.

Not sure if the comment about the limiting factor was to me or not, but if so, I agree with Johns statement that N becomes limited after employing the carbon. I had meant that carbon is the limiting factor to begin with and that this was why we dose it.

 

[delta]

so I am starting some vinegar dosing , been tossing around the Idea after seeing some threads here and talking to people . Some just hinted at it others gave some in depth guidance . I am now very curious since I found my Nitrate levels high . I usually run GFO and PO3 is as low as I can get it like around .08 . I have heard that adding PO3 in small amounts can help kick or re-start the denitrifying process of bacteria . I have a fuge with cheato that as of late is growing like crazy . so I guess that means its eating up nitrates and such . I want to try and avoid running GFO and nitrate removal media as much as possible ( I don't use nitrate reducers as yet ) any tips or advice out there ? I was thinking start dosing at about 12-15 ML a day for a week or so then jump it up 5 or 6 ML a week till reaching 40-45 ML a day . My system is a 90 gallon mixed reef with 30 gallon sump fuge , 6 buld T5 reef Octo skimmer That pulls out nice black gunk

What is your desired result? In the end dosing can help you push the system beyond it's natural ability. But if you are just using it to further clean your tank it will initially give positive results then settle on a new equilibrium. That may or may not be a low nutrient tank. Just trying to see what outcome you are looking for. Many people have move to low nutrient tanks to combat algae but it also limits the corals as well. That is why Systems like Zeovit, Prodibio, implement supplements to their dosing regiment.

But as stated before it is a commitment and going slow while testing is important. It is very easy to over do it and end up with an extremely persistent algae/bacteria.

Looking back through the post I am pretty much reiterating what John K stated

 

[reefstarter]

The end game to is to have a good culture of bacteria that will 1. help keep a low nutrient system . 2. help corals by providing that same bacterial growth . and 3 try to eliminate running some equipment . KISS method with maximum performanc
e

 

[mbian112283]

I started vodka dosing over the last two months. I went at it as another way to transport nutrients not the only way. I only dose .5 ml a day which is small but I did notice the small but of algea u had growing disappeared and my skimmer got darker in color and even stinker.

I don't really want a super low nutrient tank just anther tool to give me some wiggle room for when I miss my weekly wc.

 

[reefstarter]

agreed on the WC , one thing about Vodka dosing I have learned . it adds a step to the process , and more expensive . Rather drink the stuff myself lol. Vinegar on the other hand changes straight to acetic acid and is used by the bacteria . plus who wants to drink vinegar

 

[dannyp02908]

a 1.75l bottle of rotgut is like 8 bucks at the local package store. and you need an eighth of the amount. But either way is fine.

One thing to note with water changes. Just because you have no detectable nutrients does not mean your system is healthy. Water changes not only dilute pollution but they replenish the elements we don't dose.

 

[reefstarter]

Not saying water changes can go away by any means , but we all do get busy and have to miss one now and then . having a system that can go for more than 1 week without a change is better right ?

 

[dannyp02908]

absolutely but imo a tank can go a week with or without carbon dosing. the tank will adjust. Before carbon dosing I would routinely go a month without a water change.

 

[JohnK]

Not saying water changes can go away by any means , but we all do get busy and have to miss one now and then . having a system that can go for more than 1 week without a change is better right ?

Missing a water change wont' be an issue, but if you are carbon dosing and you miss a few days of that you may have a serious issue.

 

[reefstarter]

That's a good point john, maybe there is a better way that isn't as reliant on daily maintenance? I glare in there every day but what if I am sick or want to go on vacation. There has to be a way to export excess nutrients short of changing 60 percent every week

 

[JohnK]

I dose vinegar with a peristaltic pump on a timer. All I need to do is change the jug of vinegar every 6 months or however often it runs out.

 

[reefkeeper2]

Observation and practice are the keys to success with carbon dosing. Once you know how, you can tell with a look if you need to change your dosing. I use biopellets constantly which provide a baseline amount of carbon present in the system all the time. But I dose vodka too in different amounts depending on what I see in the tank. If the tank looks "dirty" to me I start or increase the vodka dose. If things look "clean" I decrease or stop it. Sometimes I run with just the biopellets for many weeks or even months. It all depends on what is happening in the tank with the animals, food etc. When my new tank crashed in May, I turned the vodka dose up to deal with all the nitrates, dinos and cyano. Today the tank is very "clean" with white sand and no algae. When things look like this I need to dose aminos because the system is so nutrient poor. It's time to cut back a little. If you want success with carbon dosing you need to roll with the punches.

 

[gwdemos]

Reefkeeper - prudent to observe and not over-react. what were your NO3, PO4 readings prior to introducing your carbon dosing? Sounds like you run biop + vodka as well? I would figure biop would be sufficient? whats your bioload like?
I'm looking at a biopellet reactor for my 250g total volume system, heavy bioload (lots of fish only currently while frags are in QT); this will be an all SPS setup.

doing the feeding i like and biweekly WC i still get NO3 of 25ppm in this display.
So reefdynamics reactor will be on order next week to get nutrients lowered before frags go in.
running GFO currently with a plan on taking GFO off line at least initially while biop cycles up.
-Greg

 

[delta]

Observation and practice are the keys to success with carbon dosing. Once you know how, you can tell with a look if you need to change your dosing. I use biopellets constantly which provide a baseline amount of carbon present in the system all the time. But I dose vodka too in different amounts depending on what I see in the tank. If the tank looks "dirty" to me I start or increase the vodka dose. If things look "clean" I decrease or stop it. Sometimes I run with just the biopellets for many weeks or even months. It all depends on what is happening in the tank with the animals, food etc. When my new tank crashed in May, I turned the vodka dose up to deal with all the nitrates, dinos and cyano. Today the tank is very "clean" with white sand and no algae. When things look like this I need to dose aminos because the system is so nutrient poor. It's time to cut back a little. If you want success with carbon dosing you need to roll with the punches.

Important point Paul. The issue with dosing is unlike many of the things we manage in a reef tank we can't test for carbon dosing. So as Paul is saying observation is your best test. Also Paul reiterates my point that if you keep it hard fast in the fact this is the dose and stick to that regiment you will really be no where different than just running a tank without it. As once it hits it natural balance it will stay there.

Little off topic But Paul's observations are like a doctors in how he keeps his reef. When he sees something he implements things and will watch the reaction to his tank and adjust accordingly. But that is the time in the hobby has he and he has it dialed in. If you have never seen Paul work you are missing something very cool.

 

[reefstarter]

I only run GFO and carbon now , I have not started with vinegar yet , was considering Biopellts too instead of GFO I am worried about having too low a nutrient system , I want to have some on this set up but not too much , like never over 5-10 PPM and since I am learning about more ways to do this I want to experiment and see what works best . with all the responses here I am leaning towards not carbon dosing as it seems like sort of a waste unless kept going forever . and even then someone mentioned it will eventually balance out and do no more good . if something isn't doing good anymore then it must be doing bad .

 

[JohnK]

The "forever" part isn't really forever. It's just that if you get a system acclimated to carbon dosing and then just stop you will have issues because A, all that bacterial biomass will die off causing low O2 and releasing whatever nutrients back into the system, and B because that system won't have any other adequate means of nutrient control to take up the slack. I see no reason why you couldn't wean a system off of carbon dosing, it would just have to be done deliberately.

But yes, carbon dosing is not something you do once to fix a problem. It's an ongoing strategy just like growing cheato, running GFO, or even regular water changes.

Also FWIW I take a very different approach from Paul. He is meticulous and very attentive, I won't use those words to describe my approach to my tank I run a steady, modest vinegar dose and rarely adjust it. I always have some nusiance algae but not a ton. I don't consider my tank to be ultra low nutrient at all. I just use the carbon dosing to keep things managable without a refugim or other major nutrient removal other than skimming.

 

[delta]

I only run GFO and carbon now , I have not started with vinegar yet , was considering Biopellts too instead of GFO I am worried about having too low a nutrient system , I want to have some on this set up but not too much , like never over 5-10 PPM and since I am learning about more ways to do this I want to experiment and see what works best . with all the responses here I am leaning towards not carbon dosing as it seems like sort of a waste unless kept going forever . and even then someone mentioned it will eventually balance out and do no more good . if something isn't doing good anymore then it must be doing bad .

It is a tool you have in your reefers tool kit. Knowing how it works and its limitations are the keys to figuring out if it is a good fit for you.

You are not locked in forever. You can wean a tank off of carbon dosing there are 100s of people In the BRS who have done it. Carbon dosing was the rage a few years back.

It is a choice, one most experiment with. But it is a personal choice for you as a reefer to make. Does it work IMHO/E Yes.
But for me I am the hands out of the tank reefkeeper these days, which has more to do with life limitation rather than desire to be more hands on.
You have to weigh in the facts surrounding your own situation as it is a commitment and adds another component to figuring out problems, while possibly being a solution at times.

See your goal is one that is achievable without carbon dosing, keeping nitrates and phosphates low can be achieved with no problem without the use of carbon dosing.

Do not do it as others are doing it. Do not do it because so and so does and has an amazing tank, do not do it to solve a problem, do it because you feel it will benefit your tanks livestock and ultimately get you to a mature tank that can live for years to come.