Another red-bug thread

[JWeb]

Maybe we need to start putting prophylactics on all of our corals before putting them in our tanks.

On a more serious note, however, it would be very useful for this newbie to understand all of the possible infestations that can afflict the various coral familes. I now understand that the "red bugs" affect only acros. Yet, I remember reading about zoa-eating nudibranchs... Matt L. has done a great job discussing flat worms... Is there an all-inclusive reference or would it be useful to have Moe setup another "How It Works" thread that presents all of these common infestations, their cause, treatment and preventions?

Nate, I don't mean to hijack your thread... please forgive the intrusion.

 

[NateHanson]

Jeff, I think that's a great idea for a "How it works" thread. Why don't you pm Moe in case he's not clinging to my personal drama in this thread.

 

[reefnroll]

Nate -

It sounds like you've got your mind made up to do the treatment in a way that neither myself nor Lam would suggest, given that both of us have stated that we don't believe that it is 100% certain that bugs do NOT to travel on rocks from infected tanks... or possibly even corals other than acros (see Lam's reference to zoanthids above). The treatment is exhaustive (and exhausting), whether in-tank or via the steps you've described, but as I said before... I wouldn't do it that way, so I wouldn't recommend that you do it that way.

With all due respect to Greg... and I have the utmost respect for you Greg... I realize you have knowledge of these bugs, but you've never dealt with an infestation of this type - as you've stated many times in the past, nor have you performed the Interceptor treatment on your system (that I'm aware of). Yes.. in one sense, the treatment is 'easy,' but we're tossing chemicals into our tanks that kill things off... so I would never take that lightly, and I want to avoid the need to do it ever again. Your experience is legendary, but I would never suggest that anyone take a shortcut on this procedure... and what Nate is asking a 'blessing' for amounts that. We all have a lot to lose, relative to our experience and what we've put into our systems. My 300 gallons is as precious to me as Greg's... what 1000+ gallons (?), or Nate's 75 gallons. My suggestion is to do it once, do it right, and do it the way people who have done it successfully are advising.

These threads keep popping up with people asking whether anyone can advise how to do deal with these pests... yet it seems that very few people want to actually accept the advice as it's given. I'm not sure why that is.

b

 

[Moe_K]

Jeff, I think that's a great idea for a "How it works" thread. Why don't you pm Moe in case he's not clinging to my personal drama in this thread.

Oh, I'm here and taking it all in. I love these threads with good info.
I'll hook you up next week, JWEB.

 

[jmkeary]

b-

you make some good points but I think the trouble is that even in the original threads on this treatment they started to bend the standard of treatment by reducing water changes and charcoal use. So immediately ppl want to know if 25% waterchanges, complete tank treatments, charcoal use is really needed. Without someone spending a lot of time checking to see what is really needed or not you will always have ppl taking the short route to save time and money. The only thing I get out of all these threads is that we know interceptor at 25mg/10gal kills these bugs after 6 hours the rest is up in the air. Do you have to change the water, run charcoal, treat the whole tank verses just the corals? who knows but hey better safe then sorry. For me i would rather loose a few $1-2 hermits and $20-30 shrimp than a few $50-200 acros.

 

[Greg Hiller]

Bec,

>I realize you have knowledge of these bugs, but you've never dealt with an infestation of this type <

Actually as I wrote in my article many years ago I did have an infestation in both of my frag tanks. I tossed all the Acros that were infected except one in which I very carefully cleaned under a scope a single branch since I didn't have it any where else. I left the frag tanks free of Acropora for a one or two (cannot remember exactly, but it was no longer than two weeks) and the tanks have been free of the parasite ever since.

I agree that treating the whole tank is more likely a 100% cure, but, IMO, the risk is very small to treat outside the tank. Like I say, it's just my opinion, nothing more.

Nate,

My main concern about your plan is the environmental conditions in your treatment tank. It would be good if you had some live rock in the tank.

Here's another idea so that you wouldn't need water from your main tank that you would not be treating. Why not take 10-20 gallons out of the tank now and leave it with an airstone (warm) in it for a week or so. As mentioned above (I've not read it, or heard it direct) Dustin seems to think the bugs starve within a week at most. After that week start your treatment as you have planned, and then use the water in the buckets for the water changes.

 

[reefnroll]

jmkeary -

Good points you've made. I'm not at all arguing the issues you've addressed regarding adjustments to water changes or charcoal... and I'm all for saving money in those areas. I've read where some people did NO water changes, and just restarted their skimmers to remove remnants of the Interceptor. I'm talking about the basic need to treat the entire tank, rather than taking a chance on removing corals for separate treatment and potentially leaving mite eggs or mites themselves in the reef... that's all. I'm also speaking from my own experience and that of others who did this treatment when Dustin first hit the boards with the information. You'll find dozens of people with ideas about how to bend the rules in every direction, but the folks who've got tanks that were infested - treated with Interceptor - and now have mite free systems that remain that way are another issue. I'm just advocating the "better safe than sorry" route... same as you. It's pretty simple, but doesn't seem to translate that way.

Greg -
I read your article when it first hit the rack. My suggestion about your not having dealt with an infestation was in regard to a full system infestation, as opposed to an isolated, relatively controllable case(s)... and also in regard to treating with Interceptor. My apologies for not being clear. Tossing all the acros was the only way to do it at the time... and starvation of the remaining bugs resulted.

Again... that's good information to know. But in a reef with live rock, bits and pieces of acro branches tossed behind rocks (I know I've got tons in my tank), live sand, and a host of other potential 'hosts...' hanging out in the reef, full treatment is the only way to go, in my opinion.

As I said in another, very similar thread on this forum... it's not my tank, so in the end I suppose I shouldn't care. But in the spirit of trying to help, I thought I would.

b

 

[Armando]

The question, for the ones who want to treat all incoming livestock, is what is the safest and simplest quarantine procedure. I'm not confident that a single dip will kill all the bugs. And even if it did, there could be eggs... Doing a three-week treatment for each new animal I get would be more work, time and $ than I'd like.

 

[Greg Hiller]

Bec,

>My suggestion about your not having dealt with an infestation was in regard to a full system infestation, as opposed to an isolated, relatively controllable case(s)... and also in regard to treating with Interceptor. But in a reef with live rock<

Agreed, I did not play with the interceptor, I only give that to my dog! However, the tanks that I cleared were a 125, and a 75 complete with live rock, sand, fish, etc. etc. There were a lot of corals in these tanks, I left EVERYTHING in these tanks other than the Acros (Pocillipora on every surface, Anacropora, Montipora, Stylophora, Hydnophora, etc.). I doubt that Nate's tank on most levels is much different. I agree (as I stated before) that if there is any chance that live Acro tissue is left in the tank then the tank will not be cleared.

>As I said in another, very similar thread on this forum... it's not my tank, so in the end I suppose I shouldn't care. But in the spirit of trying to help, I thought I would.<

Your opinion, as the opinions of everyone else are highly valued. But please remember very few issues are completely black and white. I know you are passionate about the hobby, but sometimes there are different ways to attack the same problem. Experimentation is not always a bad thing. In this case since the system is already infected, I think the risk of using an alternative method is minimal. Again, just my $0.02.

 

[Mike A]

For many people, selective treatments with the Interceptor is not an option. If you have acropora corals that are encrusted down on large pieces of live rock, and that rock is supporting your rock structure, how many people would choose to take down their rock work and remove that one rock. Also do we know if these mites have a larval stage where they are in the water column until they mature and find homes on the resident acropora in the tank ?

In my own mind I just didn't have the answers to those questions, so I chose piece of mind and decided to treat the entire system as well as my quarantine tank. I've read the posts laying out the protocol for the Interceptor treatments that Dustin posted on the web. He states that even by removing all of the crabs and shrimp from your system, you may risk reintroducing the mites to the aquarium once those crabs and mites were returned to the system after the Interceptor treatment. At the time, and I'm not sure if this is even known at present - he had no idea what the life cycle was for the mites.

If my frag tank and not my main tank was infected with mites, I'd have no problem tossing anything in that frag tank, as I'd have the mother colonies uninfected in my main reef. Many of us did not have that option, I am not about to toss every acro in my main display tank as a cure.

 

[NateHanson]

I really mean it when I say that I appreciate ALL the advice I'm getting here. I've been taking all this advice to heart, and I've been doing extensive reading on RDO and Reefcentral. I'm making a point of not reinventing a treatment. Rather I'm following a treatment that many other people have used to rid their systems of red-bugs when the circumstances allow all corals to be removed to a quarantine tank.

Everyone who has done microscopic examinations of the red-bug lifecycle (and there are 3 or 4 folks on the other boards who have) say that without an acro host all bugs were dead after 5 days. Furthermore, many many aquarists who have removed all acropora from a system to rid it of red bugs (including greg) found that when clean acroporas were introduced after 1 or 2 weeks, the system remained red-bug free indefinitely. So it seems pretty clear that the bugs can't live without acropora. It also seems to be pretty well agreed that if there is any acropora in a system, treating corals outside the tank and returning them later will not result in a successful treatment.

If my tank were not in the peculiar situation of having been sterilized of all SPS only one month ago, by a severe top-off disaster, then I would not think of treating my corals outside the tank. Acros had encrusted on large rocks in multiple places, and it's likely that bits of acro had broken and fallen to various cracks and crevices here and there. However, since New Years, I can say with some certainty that every bit of that was completely skeletized. All acros added since that disaster are resting on plugs on the rock, and have only been there for about 10 days. So they can easily be removed to another tank, leaving nothing behind.

Given everything I've read and been told by all of you, it seems quite clear to me that treatment in the tank would be a waste of perfectly decent crabs, shrimp and pods. I can't see any reason to treat in the display tank in my case. I may be wrong, and if so, the cost to me will be the 50 mg of interceptor I'm using on the quarantine tank. I assure you I'm not intending to reinventing anything; I'm way to new for that. I'm just following a different protocol that has worked for others, and happens to apply to my particular situation. I certainly hope nobody feels I'm taking their advice lightly, or thumbing my amateur nose in your more experienced faces. That's not my intention at all.

Regarding Greg's questions, I'll put 10 pounds of LR in the frag tank. That sounds like a good idea, and an easy one. As for the water change water. I plan to take the original 7 gallons from my tank, and then for the water changes after the treatments, would it be ok to use new water, or do you think it's safer for the corals if I use the aged tank water as you describe preparing it?

Thanks, Nate

 

[Lam]

Did you ship a large quantity of water into your tank with the live rock? Did you rinse the live rock in 'clean' water before introduction.

Nope, the LR was put in buckets with some tank water and transported to my home from a reefer breaking down his tank. I did not rinse before introduction.

Are you certain that no infected (even lightly) Acros were added?

To the best of my knowlegde: no.

1. The person whom it happened to knew exactly what the bugs looked like, and was certain his/her tank was clean.

2. The person had not added ANY Acropora to their tank for at least 3 months prior.

3. There were no traces of any Acropora tissue on anything added to the tank from the infected tank.

1. I am an accomplished red mite detector.

2. The reefer also sold his sps to me which I treated at 2x recommended Interceptor dosing. I've done this to all corals (infected or not) and believe this method to be VERY effective. (I've been bug free for appoximately a year now) The possibility could be that there were eggs on the sps and that re-infected the system because I only quarantine-dipped once and not 2-3x.

3. I suppose this is a possibility. If so, does it matter since you say LR can contain infected acro tissue and hence be treated?

It's okay to be skeptical, but it's better if you exercise prudence.

 

[NateHanson]

we don't believe that it is 100% certain that bugs do NOT to travel on rocks from infected tanks... or possibly even corals other than acros (see Lam's reference to zoanthids above).

Bec, I don't disagree that red bugs might be carried on rock, zoanthids, or even in water from an infected tank (I've seen them crawling around on the sides of a tupperware with an acro frag in it). I'm not sure if you're saying that you think the bugs can live on these as hosts for an extended period, and survive without any acropora present. If so, I'm interested in hearing more, because I've gotten the strong impression from others that they die without Acropora.

I don't think my proposed quarantine will provide any opportunity for infected material to transfer the bugs back into the tank, but if you think the bugs will survive the week and a half in the tank while the acros are being treated elsewhere, then that'll obviously cause a problem with my plan. Let me know what you think about this.

Thanks, Nate

 

[NateHanson]

Tonight at 5pm I removed all Acropora frags from the display tank, and put them in a 10g tank on an eggcrate stage with ~5 pounds of LR and about 7 gallons of water from the display tank.

I dosed the 7g system with 25mg of Interceptor. Now (6 1/2 hours later) I'm going to do a 2 gallon water change with fresh-mixed ASW, and run carbon in an Aquaclear 150.

As I moved the frags I blasted bugs, into a separate container, off the two that were visibly infected. So there were only a handful of bugs visible on the frags when I started treatment. Now they're all gone from view after the first treatment.

Interestingly, I missed one small hermit in the rock, and as soon as I dosed, he crawled out of the rock, and promptly died. (within 10 minutes). Pods went into convulsions immediately and soon littered the bottom of the tank. Clearly this stuff isn't very friendly to the crustaceans.

Nate

 

[~Flighty~]

The large crustations in my experience probably weren't dead. They were immobule down to even the feelers and almost all came back in my tank. Don't chuck them yet. I saw som pods soon after treatment too. they were too large to have grown from eggs since the treatment.

This observation might have berring on the redbugs themselves if anyone wants to try treating and saving a few to see if they wake up.

maybe two treatments in 24 hours would be best. I'm just throwing out ideas if anyone studies this later.

 

[NateHanson]

Cindy, it could be that my elevated dose was more lethal. Since I was treating in a separate tank, I used about 3.5mg/gallon, instead of 2.5mg/gallon. I pulled out that motionless hermit crab, and tossed him back into the main tank (same water, just filled the small tank from the big one) and a larger blue-leg hermit promptly started chewing on the little guy. I think he was dead and his friend knew it.

By the way. All the acros are looking great this morning. They slimed a little when I did the water change, but that was probably as much to do with being exposed to air for a minute as anything else.

They've remained nicely polyped out through this whole thing.

Now I'm going to wait 5 days and treat again.

Nate

 

[Greg Hiller]

Lam,

>2. The reefer also sold his sps to me which I treated at 2x recommended Interceptor dosing. I've done this to all corals (infected or not) and believe this method to be VERY effective. (I've been bug free for appoximately a year now) The possibility could be that there were eggs on the sps and that re-infected the system because I only quarantine-dipped once and not 2-3x<

We will never know for sure Lam, but I suggest that your experience does not prove that the mites can easily be transferred on live rock. The fact that you brought highly infected Acropora into the tank after a short single duration treatment to me suggests that there were still bugs on the Acros. IF however, the ONLY thing you brought in was live rock, then I would think differently.

I agree of course that bits of Acro can be left on live rock, no question...however, Acropora tissue is not all that difficult to see, and I think in Nate's case he can be certain that there is no tissue on his rocks or elsewhere in his tank due to his recent SPS meltdown.

 

[~Flighty~]

This would be a good use for the light I got at the meeting. You would be amazed at some of the places coral tissue hides that you would never find without the light.