Dosing amino acids?
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RichConley
Attack of the Killer Cute
Corals really can't uptake amino acids. They basically have to process them the same as any other food: IE they eat them, and use them as a nitrogen source.
scavdog
Well-Known Member
Liam
letting it grow
i think there are many differing expert opinions on this subject.
As i interpreted it, Bourneman states it is not scentifically proven 100%.It seems it has been proved that some species can uptake them from the water column but as a whole he feels(not based on scientific data) it is not likely.
Did i interpret Bourneman correctly?
At a personal level i have not studied the dosing effect of aminos alone on my system but everything seems to be doing well and i have no algae or water quality issues so i shall continue.
I am dosing a very small amount(drops) on a daily basis.
As i interpreted it, Bourneman states it is not scentifically proven 100%.It seems it has been proved that some species can uptake them from the water column but as a whole he feels(not based on scientific data) it is not likely.
Did i interpret Bourneman correctly?
At a personal level i have not studied the dosing effect of aminos alone on my system but everything seems to be doing well and i have no algae or water quality issues so i shall continue.
I am dosing a very small amount(drops) on a daily basis.
RichConley
Attack of the Killer Cute
"It seems it has been proved that some species can uptake them from the water column but as a whole he feels"
We know they can uptake them. The question is whether they uptake them in a way that saves energy over producing them. If theyre eating them/xooxanthelle are eating them, then they are being broken down into their base components, and lead to no real energy gain. If theyre being absorbed and used as a whole, then there is a gain.
Most of the studies at this point involve using aminos with radioactive markers, and then testing whether or not the coral shows a radioactive signature. The problem with this, is it doesnt tell whether the animal is using the amino acid, or using the nitrogen/carbon/oxygen/etc that is present in the amino acid.
We know they can uptake them. The question is whether they uptake them in a way that saves energy over producing them. If theyre eating them/xooxanthelle are eating them, then they are being broken down into their base components, and lead to no real energy gain. If theyre being absorbed and used as a whole, then there is a gain.
Most of the studies at this point involve using aminos with radioactive markers, and then testing whether or not the coral shows a radioactive signature. The problem with this, is it doesnt tell whether the animal is using the amino acid, or using the nitrogen/carbon/oxygen/etc that is present in the amino acid.
Greg Hiller
BRS Moderator
>Corals really can't uptake amino acids. They basically have to process them the same as any other food: IE they eat them, and use them as a nitrogen source.<
I disagree with this statement. From the paper described below, there's no question that corals can take up amino acids directly from the water column. Saying that they 'eat' them would suggest (at least it could be taken to mean) that they break them down into the amine portion of the molecule (containing nitrogen), then put them back together for use in making the amino acids. I think it's unlikely that an organism would waste the energy to do this. The paper below suggests that multiple amino acids could be made directly from the labeled glutamic acid, and I think it likely that if an amino acid is directly taken up by a coral (and several can be), it would be used in the most efficient way, which would mean direct use.
There were several previous threads about amino acids and their use by corals previously:
http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8367&highlight=amino
http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8298&highlight=amino
The latter thread was a bit of a train wreck I'm afraid.
Here's my reply (FWIW) when this issue came up the last time:
There were several questions raised that I think were actually answered in one of the papers that were mentioned. I read through the "Biosysnthesis of 'essential' amino acids by
scleractinian corals" - Fitzgerald and Szmant in Biochem, J, 1997,
322, 213-221.
In that study they fed corals either radio-labelled glucose, or the radio-labelled amino acids glutamic acid, lysine, or valine. They did the proper controls (IMO) to ensure that contaminating bacteria were not affecting their results. The feeding was done by simply putting the corals in filtered seawater with the various nutrients in the water.
First of all, clearly they had consumption of the amino acids, and the glucose from the water by the coral, and incorporation of the 14C labelled atoms into amino acids and other cellular constituents (proteins, etc.). They used several different species of coral as test subjects, including both photosynthetic, and non-photosynthetic corals, including one Acropora species.
SO, corals CAN take up amino acids (at least 3), and glucose direct from the water. It doesn't seem likely to me that there is much glucose floating around in seawater, too easily consumed a nutrient source. Corals CAN however receive sugars (such as glucose I would assume) direct from their zooxanthellae. The purpose of the study these folks performed however, was to try and figure out which amino acids were 'essential' to corals.
Essential amino acids are defined as those which a particular organism can not synthesize itself from simpler molecules. Apparently no one had previously done this work on corals. In humans we know that 10 amino acids are 'essential'.
These researchers showed that starting with glucose, corals can synthesize at least 16 amino acids, possibly 19, but they could not measure 3 of them. But corals cannot synthesize the amino acid threonine.
The researchers also showed that starting with the amino acid glutamic acid the corals could synthesize at least 14 other amino acids (though 5 were low enough to be considered questionable). From the amino acid lysine or valine corals could make the same set of amino acids as with glutamic acid.
In this study, the scientists were able to isolate the metabolism of the zooxanthellae, from that of the coral tissue itself. It is known (apparently) that zooxanthellae can on their own synthesize all of the 20 normally occuring amino acids. It is also known (referred to other papers) that "only a few non-essential amino acids such as alanine and glutamate are excreted from zooxanthellae". So...the algae living in the corals tissues are not exactly nice about handing over amino acids they make to the coral itself.
What does it all mean for us? We who want to grow corals fast that have pretty colors.. ..I'm not really sure. It is one interesting fact that the one amino acid they are sure corals cannot make is threonine. Since
corals can make at least 16, and perhaps all 19 other amino acids, they would not likely be 'starved' for most amino acids if they did not receive them from the water column in some form, either as food, or by direct absorption. Still it is QUITE possible that corals might grow faster?, or be more colorful? if they had additional access to some amino acids direct from the water column.
In the FWIW category the amino acids that are formed to the 'least' extent by corals are the same ones that are considered 'essential' for many other organisms: tyrosine, valine, methionine, leucine, isoleucine, phenylalanine, histidine, lysine, and tryptophan. Whether there would be some particular advantage to adding any of these over the others....? don't know
I disagree with this statement. From the paper described below, there's no question that corals can take up amino acids directly from the water column. Saying that they 'eat' them would suggest (at least it could be taken to mean) that they break them down into the amine portion of the molecule (containing nitrogen), then put them back together for use in making the amino acids. I think it's unlikely that an organism would waste the energy to do this. The paper below suggests that multiple amino acids could be made directly from the labeled glutamic acid, and I think it likely that if an amino acid is directly taken up by a coral (and several can be), it would be used in the most efficient way, which would mean direct use.
There were several previous threads about amino acids and their use by corals previously:
http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8367&highlight=amino
http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8298&highlight=amino
The latter thread was a bit of a train wreck I'm afraid.
Here's my reply (FWIW) when this issue came up the last time:
There were several questions raised that I think were actually answered in one of the papers that were mentioned. I read through the "Biosysnthesis of 'essential' amino acids by
scleractinian corals" - Fitzgerald and Szmant in Biochem, J, 1997,
322, 213-221.
In that study they fed corals either radio-labelled glucose, or the radio-labelled amino acids glutamic acid, lysine, or valine. They did the proper controls (IMO) to ensure that contaminating bacteria were not affecting their results. The feeding was done by simply putting the corals in filtered seawater with the various nutrients in the water.
First of all, clearly they had consumption of the amino acids, and the glucose from the water by the coral, and incorporation of the 14C labelled atoms into amino acids and other cellular constituents (proteins, etc.). They used several different species of coral as test subjects, including both photosynthetic, and non-photosynthetic corals, including one Acropora species.
SO, corals CAN take up amino acids (at least 3), and glucose direct from the water. It doesn't seem likely to me that there is much glucose floating around in seawater, too easily consumed a nutrient source. Corals CAN however receive sugars (such as glucose I would assume) direct from their zooxanthellae. The purpose of the study these folks performed however, was to try and figure out which amino acids were 'essential' to corals.
Essential amino acids are defined as those which a particular organism can not synthesize itself from simpler molecules. Apparently no one had previously done this work on corals. In humans we know that 10 amino acids are 'essential'.
These researchers showed that starting with glucose, corals can synthesize at least 16 amino acids, possibly 19, but they could not measure 3 of them. But corals cannot synthesize the amino acid threonine.
The researchers also showed that starting with the amino acid glutamic acid the corals could synthesize at least 14 other amino acids (though 5 were low enough to be considered questionable). From the amino acid lysine or valine corals could make the same set of amino acids as with glutamic acid.
In this study, the scientists were able to isolate the metabolism of the zooxanthellae, from that of the coral tissue itself. It is known (apparently) that zooxanthellae can on their own synthesize all of the 20 normally occuring amino acids. It is also known (referred to other papers) that "only a few non-essential amino acids such as alanine and glutamate are excreted from zooxanthellae". So...the algae living in the corals tissues are not exactly nice about handing over amino acids they make to the coral itself.
What does it all mean for us? We who want to grow corals fast that have pretty colors.. ..I'm not really sure. It is one interesting fact that the one amino acid they are sure corals cannot make is threonine. Since
corals can make at least 16, and perhaps all 19 other amino acids, they would not likely be 'starved' for most amino acids if they did not receive them from the water column in some form, either as food, or by direct absorption. Still it is QUITE possible that corals might grow faster?, or be more colorful? if they had additional access to some amino acids direct from the water column.
In the FWIW category the amino acids that are formed to the 'least' extent by corals are the same ones that are considered 'essential' for many other organisms: tyrosine, valine, methionine, leucine, isoleucine, phenylalanine, histidine, lysine, and tryptophan. Whether there would be some particular advantage to adding any of these over the others....? don't know
reefkeeper2
Well-Known Member
Liam,
I have followed with interest a few threads on RC about the zeovit method. It will be great to see if it works for you and to hear what your thoughts on it are.
I have followed with interest a few threads on RC about the zeovit method. It will be great to see if it works for you and to hear what your thoughts on it are.
Greg Hiller
BRS Moderator
Liam,
I've not tried anything, nor have I whipped anything up in the lab to try. I've actually be waiting (quite some time now) for a sample to come back in my lab that should give me a pretty good indication of the concentrations of amino acids in one of the available supplements. The analytical equipment was down for a long time, but I expect results any day now. I've toyed with the idea of whipping my own up at that point and seeing if it has any effect.
I've not tried anything, nor have I whipped anything up in the lab to try. I've actually be waiting (quite some time now) for a sample to come back in my lab that should give me a pretty good indication of the concentrations of amino acids in one of the available supplements. The analytical equipment was down for a long time, but I expect results any day now. I've toyed with the idea of whipping my own up at that point and seeing if it has any effect.
Liam
letting it grow
sounds great,look forward to hearing the outcome
Liam
letting it grow
Paul
so far so good,i am very satisfied with the system.
You are welcome to swing by and check out the ins and outs of the system.
I am by no means an expert in zeovit but so far i seem to have a happy balance with it.
Greg Hiller
BRS Moderator
I do know this much at this time, the supplement had a VERY low concentration of just about anything based on it's freezing point depression (an assay I could run myself, easily in a few minutes).
Liam
letting it grow
i should give you a little of the zeovit high concentrate aminos to see if there is a decent quantity of anything remotely useful in it
reefkeeper2
Well-Known Member
Liam,
Because my system is so large,(500 gal total) wouldn't the zeo system cost me big bucks? I also have a mixed population with softies and anemones. What would this regimen do to them? I'm not happy with my sps growth and have lost a few to RTN so I'm looking for a new approach.
I have another question. Are amino acids found in the wild floating free in the water column?
I live 3 minutes away from the bridgewater VFW where the meeting is taking place saturday. Your welcome to come look at my setup. I would welcome some critical advise.
Because my system is so large,(500 gal total) wouldn't the zeo system cost me big bucks? I also have a mixed population with softies and anemones. What would this regimen do to them? I'm not happy with my sps growth and have lost a few to RTN so I'm looking for a new approach.
I have another question. Are amino acids found in the wild floating free in the water column?
I live 3 minutes away from the bridgewater VFW where the meeting is taking place saturday. Your welcome to come look at my setup. I would welcome some critical advise.
