High Nitrates Please Help

[RMotta]

Ok guys I have been in constant battle with my Nitrates. Currently they are over 100 and out of control. I have been doing weekly water changes to try to get them down and nothing is touching them. The more I look at the list I may have too much in the tank. I dont know ... HELP!!

I have Also started AZ-NO3 as of 2 days ago, But I really dont like using this as I feel it is only helping the problem and not correcting my issue. Thanks in advance.

Current tank
Makeup/change water is RO/DI.
150-Gallon Tank
Upgraded lights last night from PC to MH with PC Actinic “Outer Orbit System”
Approx 110=lbs of Live Rock
Approx 2-3 inches of Crushed Coral Sub Strait
Duel Over flows going into an Americal Wet dry Filter “Bio Balls and Live Rock”
Coral Life Skimmer Dumping every two to three days, “Thick green and nasty stink”
PhosBan Reactor with PhosBan Media
2 Korallin Power heads for movement
1 Cascade 1000 Canister filter full of Kent Nitrate Sponge “about a month old”
1 Fluval 304 Canister filter full of Kent Marine Carbon “About 2 weeks old”

Fish
1 Yellow Tank
1 Valintini Puffer
1 Coral Beauty
1 Blenny
2 Clowns
1 Domino Damsel, He has survived from the beginning
2 Blue Damsels, I may have named these wrong. Also from the beginning
1 Lunar Wrasse
1 3 Banded coral shrimp

Corals
3 Various size leathers
Approx a hundred Zoos
Approx 10-20 Mushrooms
1 Anemone
1 Hammer with about 8 heads
30-40 Button Polyps
1 Fungia plate with 5 heads
1 Large Colt like 12" accross
1 Coco Work
2 Large Feather Dusters
A bunch of various snails, allot have died off in the last month

Parameters
Temp 81
Calcium 520
Alk 8dkh
PH 8.4
Nitrites 0.5 <--- I maybe wrong on this
Nitrates 100+
Iodine 0.0

Feeding
Every Day 2 frozen cubes of either Mysis or Mixed "Thawed out First"
Once a week i add 4mls of MicroVert, 4mls Of ZooPlex, and 2 mls of PhytoPlex

 

[JohnK]

Wet dry filter and crushed coral substrate can both contribute quite a bit to nitrate problems.

It also looks like your feeding a lot, but you have a lot of fish so you may need to.
I'm not sure what would be eating these foods?
"Once a week i add 4mls of MicroVert, 4mls Of ZooPlex, and 2 mls of PhytoPlex"
I'd think twice about feeding those foods?

 

[mandrake]

what kind of nitrate test kit? you may want to get a different test kit to compare numbers, I dont think 10 fish in a 150 is overstocked,

 

[stingythingy45]

I would send the bio-balls rolling and put some chaeto in that area.
Both canister filters would be history,especially the one with nitrate sponge that's 2 months old.I would suspect that's exactly what it has become a sponge that is now leaching.
Lastly I would do a massive water change(50 gallons or more).
Then I would make plans to get that crushed coral substrate out of there and get at least 4-6 inches of fine aragonite sand.
That my friend is where your trouble lies,it that sand bed filled with detritus instead of anarobic bacteria.

 

[RMotta]

IM feeding these as I do have some critters that I though would benefit from them. I forgot to include them on my List.
Coco worm
Colt Coral Very Large like 12'' across
Feather Dusters

Do you think maybe I should convert the wet dry to a fuge? I was thinking about doing this tomorrow...

Thanks

Wet dry filter and crushed coral substrate can both contribute quite a bit to nitrate problems.

It also looks like your feeding a lot, but you have a lot of fish so you may need to.
I'm not sure what would be eating these foods?
"Once a week i add 4mls of MicroVert, 4mls Of ZooPlex, and 2 mls of PhytoPlex"
I'd think twice about feeding those foods?

 

[RMotta]

I have been cleaning the crushed Coral using this suction tube thing ... Do you really think I need to change this out. That would be a PITA
Also would you totally get rid of the canisters or use them for something else. The directions on the Kent Nitrate spnge say it wont start to work for atleast a few weeks..But hasnt moved the Nitrates...

Thanks... this is what I need, keep it coming

I would send the bio-balls rolling and put some chaeto in that area.
Both canister filters would be history,especially the one with nitrate sponge that's 2 months old.I would suspect that's exactly what it has become a sponge that is now leaching.
Lastly I would do a massive water change(50 gallons or more).
Then I would make plans to get that crushed coral substrate out of there and get at least 4-6 inches of fine aragonite sand.
That my friend is where your trouble lies,it that sand bed filled with detritus instead of anarobic bacteria.

 

[RMotta]

I did think the test kit was wrong...So I bought another one yesterday and it reads the same..... Seachem and Redsea

what kind of nitrate test kit? you may want to get a different test kit to compare numbers, I dont think 10 fish in a 150 is overstocked,

 

[stingythingy45]

I have been cleaning the crushed Coral using this suction tube thing ... Do you really think I need to change this out. That would be a PITA
Also would you totally get rid of the canisters or use them for something else. The directions on the Kent Nitrate spnge say it wont start to work for atleast a few weeks..But hasnt moved the Nitrates...

Thanks... this is what I need, keep it coming

What you need is a deep sand bed(DSB).
The crushed coral is acting as a trap for detritus and nutrients.
Fine arogonite sand packs rather tight together helping to keep ditritus and matter from sinking deep in the substrate where it rots and becomes nitrates.
Also anarobic bacteria grows in areas void of oxygen.Anarobic bacteria will grow in the deepest part of your sand bed.This bacteria will turn nitrates gases that can escape the from the sandbed.Look up "deep sand bed" for info.Gee......that was a lot of typing for me.Hope I got it right....

Here's a link:

http://www.ronshimek.com/Deep Sand Beds.htm

 

[wrassefan]

I think the major items stand out as stated above by John....the supplement dosing is a bit excessive...IMO....and the crush coral will trap excess food and detritus. I'll bet if you vacuum the cc....it will be full of crud. Also, the skimmer you have might not be as efficient as other models to overcome what you are adding into the water that is not used up by your tank inhabitants.

 

[RMotta]

ok, I will stop the dosing... I have been vacuuming the CC and the water in the bucket is usually BROWN! I cant even see through it. I usually vacuum when I do a water change.

So should I absolutly change the CC for sand? or just do a better job at Vacuuming. Your thoughts

Also, I have had this CC in there for over 3 years and now all of a sudden a huge spike in Nitrates...Is it just from the build up from waste and wont the same happen with sand?

I think the major items stand out as stated above by John....the supplement dosing is a bit excessive...IMO....and the crush coral will trap excess food and detritus. I'll bet if you vacuum the cc....it will be full of crud. Also, the skimmer you have might not be as efficient as other models to overcome what you are adding into the water that is not used up by your tank inhabitants.

 

[wrassefan]

sand won't collect the same as cc....I think alot of us (me included) had cc and changed to sand...just looked better to me and fish and inverts live in my sandbed...cc is too sharp for them....

your call on the changing of cc to sand...changing cc to sand is not without its issues during the change...I guess some folks have vacuumed out a section at a time so as not to disturb too much of the bio bed. I did it all at once pulling all rock, fish and coral out.....small spike/cycle this way sometimes

 

[JohnK]

Yes, there are a million ways to manage a reef tank. You don't HAVE TO remove the CC, but IMO it's a very good idea. I would do as Andy said and remove it a little at a time.

The major issue between CC and sand (just reiterating what's already been said) is that the CC will almost always increase your nitrate, whereas a Deep sand bed will reduce the nitrate. CC will trap detritis/crud and make it sit there and decay releasing lots of nitrate. A DSB will house anoxic bacteria that will break down nitrate that's already in the water.

"Also, I have had this CC in there for over 3 years and now all of a sudden a huge spike in Nitrates...Is it just from the build up from waste and wont the same happen with sand?"

There is some debate about DSB's. Some say that they will become saturated with some nutirents over time and eventually become a problem leaching bad stuff out. That said there are plenty of tanks out there with DSB's that are many yrs old and doing fine. (everything is debatable in this hobby).

A common solution for those who are worried about DSB's having such problems is to go with a "remote DSB", or a "DSB in a bucket". That means having a seperate container outside of the display tank with just a DSB. This DSB can be changed out every few years.

One other thing to consider is some sort of refugim. This would be a seperate place to grow cheatomorphia or other fast growing macro algae. You grow the algae then harvest out a portion of it from time to time. This will help to pull nutirents out also.


Oh yea, and Bio balls are not generally used in reef tanks anymore because they process waste too well. They break down everything into nitrate fast. Without the bioballs/wet dry a lot of waste can/will be pulled out by the skimmer (if it's a good one) or consumed by tank inhabitants - before being broken down into nitrate.

HTH

 

[KyleinCT]

You know, I have my 75g and 40 g tanks tied to a mutual 32 g oceanic wet dry sump with a reef devil skimmer set in another 10 g tank. This reef devil sucks a ton of snot out of the tank. I keep telling myself I need to yank the bb wet dry out, but the trates keep running between 5 and 10, and the sps in the 40 is colored up and growing...so I wonder if the wet dry is as bad as folks say it is.

That being said, on my main display I have a 150 g loaded 4/5ths full with LR and the trates are 0.

 

[RMotta]

Thanks to everyone who posted. Last night I ditched the BIO BALLS and just placed some of the live rock from the main tank in the sump. I drove down to CRA in seekonk today and picked up a refugium. The plan is to remove the old wetdry filter tomorrow and get the refugium up and running.

I also will be ditching the canister filters. Unless anyone feels they are of any benefit to my tank.

I never setup a refugium before, So if anyone wants to chime in and give me some pointers...Feel Free.

Thanks again!

 

[jrmx635]

nitrates

get rid of bio balls.
make it a refugium with cheato.
lose the crushed coral and most importand,invest in a better skimmer.

 

[JohnK]

A canister filter can be handy if you want to polish your water for a couple of days with carbon.

Also, if your running a QT they can be handy for that.

Not necessary reef equipment IMO, but don't throw them away

 

[Reefried]

I agree with everyone else, but I think that overfeeding is your MAIN PROBLEM. Forget the liquid foods you are using, if you want to dose aminos or something similar you can, but only once or twice a week. Also if that was my tank, I'd only feed ONE cube every other day. I currently feed every third day with supplemental nori feedings on the days in between for my hippo, (and only a small amount of nori- I dont use a clip, due to the fact that my flow is too strong and it ends up stuck to an acro or something, so I cut it up and squirt it into the tank with a kids medicine doser. and some weeks I use formula two {the green one,it might be formula one} with the nori, my hippo and fang blenny love it). But trust me every other day is PLENTY. Soo many people over feed. And as far as the crushed coral substrate goes, you can suck it out slowly, with a small diameter piece of tubing, no need for a total breakdown, then to add the new sand just put the bags into a bucket and add a few big glasses of sand per night for a few days, the water wont cloud as much that way! And I also dont think you are too overstocked, there are people on this site with a 75gall with ten fish in it, but the problem lies in the fact that you are feeding too much, which creates waste a heck of a lot faster than your system can export it. I too would lose the bio balls and eventually the wet/dry all together, plus add a better skimmer, and stop the nitrate sponge. the carbon isnt a prob, but is it really working?, and the phos reactor is great, I believe that phosphate should be removed from a reef from day one. So good luck.

 

[RMotta]

Thanks again for all the input. I think I'm off in the right direction. At this point I have setup a new refugium. The first chamber has a small ball of cheto, The second chamber has about 3/4 of an inch of Mineral Mud caped off with 1 inch of fine agonite sand and a few medium size pieces of live rock and some rubble. The third chamber has the skimmer and heater. I also had a small PC light that I have on top of the new refugium. I ditched the canister filter that contained all the Nitrate Sponge and the second canister I cleaned everthing and replaced with some new carbon. My plan for the last canister is to run it for a week or two with the new carbon and then compleatly remove it. Here is a pic of the new setup.