Tank crash, what is it to you and what can help avoid this issue?

[ReefKeeper1699]

This was touched on in another thread. I was looking to move it here to continue on the topic a bit. I personally am newish in this hobby and would like to expand more on the tank crash subject. This of course stems from Higors recent issue and got my gears turning.

I have heard that playing with levels too much and test too much and dosing here and there an cause issues or a potential crash as this has happened to Downreef on here. He tested an tested as was playing with Alk then he got what he thought was the hang of it and continued to does and alk sky rocketed to a point that wiped out the majority of his corals.

I hear from others that you should still continue to test and dose every few days pending on stockng and do a water change every week.

As of right now, with my 75 and decent amount of corals going on (not many sps), I have been doing a 5 gallon water change every week then test levels 24 or more hours after that and figure out how much alk and so on I have to dose to get my levels in a 9dkh alk range and a 450 or so calc range. I test mag once a month and try and maintain 1350.

As far as trying to avoid the inevitable tank crash, I bought a nice generator, I inspect my tank daily, I do not over feed and monitor nitrates, ammonia, ph and phosphates. I check for visable algae and make sure none is getting out of hand. Algae blenny and green emeral crabs along with hermits help keep things in control. I have a skimmer running full on and it is pulling a decent amount of black skimmate. I have 4 900gph or so powerheads keeping flow going in every part of the tank. I also have a refugium where I keep my beneficial algae, some live rock and a lot of fresh carbon.

Is there anything else I can do to help prevent this? I don't want to sound paranoid but I don't think it hurts to take all the right steps and receive a lot of tips to help avoid this or at least prolong it from happening or at least if one happens maybe it can be a minor one.

Please response with ideas, maybe some experiences you all have had what can help to prevent or minimize this.

Thanks!!

 

[ReefKeeper1699]

After rereading my post there are several typos. I am posting from my phone with autocorrect and wrong words are filled in where I do not want them. If anything is not understood please forgive me and ask what I meant in that area.

 

[JohnK]

I'd define a crash as any event or series of events that ends up causing a significant die off of fish and or other livestock.

I'd say the trying to get levels/dosing right rarely causes any sort of crash, it can happen but something has to go very wrong to do so. The one big exception is kalkwater dosing, if set up incorrectly or without adequate safe guards a kalk overdose can crash a system fast. I've heard of some very experienced reefkeepers with very successful tanks that have crashed dut to an equipment failure leading to a kalk overdose.

In general, with time most people will work out their dosing/supplementation routines so they don't need very frequent tweaking. A lot of the people who have been in the hobby for a long time will tell you that they don't do constant testing and daily observation of the tank will usually tip them off if something is starting to go amiss. Things like driving alk way up by continued use of "buffer" additives are sadly the result of misleading marketing to newer hobbiests.

Power outages are probably the most common crash inducers. Best bet, have B11 style battery air pumps (that turn on automatically when the power goes out) in place all the time, or at lease during hurricane season / winter. Second stage insurance is of course having a generator to turn on when you get home.

Algae problems like Higor is going through, I wouldn't call that a crash, more a big nusiance that the reefkeeper may or may not opt to take extreme measues to deal with.

 

[ReefKeeper1699]

Thanks John!! I am going to grab to b11s for my tank and put one at each end. Should be sufficient for a 75gal?

I for one will never dose unless a test calls for it. I'm not much of a buffer except when I water change I will put a little Auquavitro 8.4 in to accommodate things.

So far things are thriving and new polyps and heads are forming like it's no tomorrow. I am at a point now where as days to by I notice a alk and slight ph drop. Maybe it's the new coral I have and the new growth eating it up. Whereas before it would take a loooong time to drop. Now I dose accordingly.

But again, since I added carbon I noticed a decrease in algae and so on

 

[SteveDola]

weekly water changes and weekly testing for ALk/Calc will eliminate 90% of all the issues that lead to problems in this hobby. the next step would be redundancy...have backups for equipment, extra water on hand, and back up power source. Of course much of this hinges upon you being home to monitor the tank so a controller with online monitor would be the last step in the defense of the Murphys. remember to plan for the worst and hope for the best. I alway have 30 gallons on hand in my barrel just in case someone accidentally drops something in the tnak and I need a BIG WC asap.

to fend against a pest infestation I would suggest to QT all new tank inhabitants...which is tough but you could end up like me and have to tear out all the rock to rid the tank of a pest. My pest was polyps which i would closely monitor for explosive growth because once palys grab hold of a tank then you cant control their growth...at least not with the palys i encountered.

 

[this is me]

Is when sh!t die in the tank and you have to start over.

 

[JohnK]

Don't get distracted by PH. If your alk is good, your PH will be fine. "buffer" additives are really alk additives. If you go by the PH number and keep adding "buffer" you will drive the alk into an excessivly high range that will be worse for the corals than a slightly low PH. (low PH with normal alk means you have excess atmospheric Co2, this is fine as long as it doesn't drop below @7.8 PH)

The problem with not dosing is that your tank will be consuming Ca and alk on a daily basis so eventually those levels will start to drop no matter what you do. If you correct for that by doing water changes with a salt that has elevated Ca and alk, you will be having weekly swings. Ideally you want those levels steady and not fluxuating. By using daily 2 part dosing, automated kalk drip, or a Ca reactor you can keep the levels nice and steady indefinatly.

 

[jdeb101]

The problem with not dosing is that your tank will be consuming Ca and alk on a daily basis so eventually those levels will start to drop no matter what you do. If you correct for that by doing water changes with a salt that has elevated Ca and alk, you will be having weekly swings. Ideally you want those levels steady and not fluxuating. By using daily 2 part dosing, automated kalk drip, or a Ca reactor you can keep the levels nice and steady indefinatly.

Based off your statement John, would you say it's better for someone that doesn't dose (like myself) to do more frequent/smaller water changes rather than less frequent/larger?

 

[RiverRat]

I would also add....
make sure your tank is set before you go on vacation and the person that comes over to check the tank (if you need them) knows all about the tank (as in what is plugged in and where, what everything should look like, etc.). I think some people have even started to set up web cams to be able to keep an eye on things while away.
I lost a massive amount of coral because the cooling system was accidentally unplugged while I was away on vacation. Temperatures were very high for several days. The person watching the tank had no idea anything was even wrong.

 

[dz6t]

If you keep up with water change, such as 10% every two weeks (depend on your bioload, yes, coral add bioload), you don't need to dose.
If you need frequent dosing to keep levels in check, it is time to invest in a calcium reactor.

 

[higorc]

This was touched on in another thread. I was looking to move it here to continue on the topic a bit. I personally am newish in this hobby and would like to expand more on the tank crash subject. This of course stems from Higors recent issue and got my gears turning.

I have heard that playing with levels too much and test too much and dosing here and there an cause issues or a potential crash as this has happened to Downreef on here. He tested an tested as was playing with Alk then he got what he thought was the hang of it and continued to does and alk sky rocketed to a point that wiped out the majority of his corals.

I hear from others that you should still continue to test and dose every few days pending on stockng and do a water change every week.

As of right now, with my 75 and decent amount of corals going on (not many sps), I have been doing a 5 gallon water change every week then test levels 24 or more hours after that and figure out how much alk and so on I have to dose to get my levels in a 9dkh alk range and a 450 or so calc range. I test mag once a month and try and maintain 1350.

As far as trying to avoid the inevitable tank crash, I bought a nice generator, I inspect my tank daily, I do not over feed and monitor nitrates, ammonia, ph and phosphates. I check for visable algae and make sure none is getting out of hand. Algae blenny and green emeral crabs along with hermits help keep things in control. I have a skimmer running full on and it is pulling a decent amount of black skimmate. I have 4 900gph or so powerheads keeping flow going in every part of the tank. I also have a refugium where I keep my beneficial algae, some live rock and a lot of fresh carbon.

Is there anything else I can do to help prevent this? I don't want to sound paranoid but I don't think it hurts to take all the right steps and receive a lot of tips to help avoid this or at least prolong it from happening or at least if one happens maybe it can be a minor one.

Please response with ideas, maybe some experiences you all have had what can help to prevent or minimize this.

Thanks!!

I'd define a crash as any event or series of events that ends up causing a significant die off of fish and or other livestock.
. Algae problems like Higor is going through, I wouldn't call that a crash, more a big nusiance that the reefkeeper may or may not opt to take extreme measures to deal with.

Agreed with John Reefkeer1699. My tank is not crashing. To the contrary, I like to think I have a very healthy system. Aside from this freakn’ BRYOPSIS!!!

To be honest I’m trying to avoid a tank crash by not taking a few more steps I could to try to rid the tank from this nuisance algae. I’m only taking such an extreme action as breaking down my system and redoing it, because my livestock still thriving and healthy. I’m getting out while I’m ahead if u know what I mean .

To get back to your initial question, in my experience anything done to the extreme will go wrong. Testing and trying to correct levels too much will eventually yield disaster.

To be honest, I test my tank’s parameters once a month. Maybe…But I know I have a tank stable enough that unless I've changed something or I’m adding something, I can tell if something is wrong just by the reactions of my livestock.

Not to say I’m an expert, but in a young tank or if u new to the hobby its good practice to test parameters often.

In my opinion, Alk and temp swings are the most deadly in a reef system. These are the ones that kills/cause the most issues...



Higor

 

[JohnK]

Based off your statement John, would you say it's better for someone that doesn't dose (like myself) to do more frequent/smaller water changes rather than less frequent/larger?

If you're relying on water changes to correct Ca, alk and mg then more frequent would be better because it would reduce the swings, but at the same time the smaller the water changes the sooner it will get to the point where water changes can't keep up with the demand.

 

[ReefKeeper1699]

Perfect!!!! I will keep up with my weekly water changes and try to collect backup equipment. My only pest I have is red mushrooms that keep popping up everywhere lol. They are very pretty lol but not everywhere in my tank.

So a crash that I am being warned of doesn't always mean a complete loss of every single thing I own in it? Or is that just as much of a possibility?

I have a good piece if mind that I got the generator.

With all the passion I put in my tank I guess this talk of tank crashes can make paranoia set in.... Hopefully as time goes by and the more I read through these forums and updated posts I will be more prepared.

Any more things on crashes or suggestions on prevention or things to help notice signs of potential crashes please feel free to share.

 

[P-Nut]

To avoid a crash:
- automate dosing
- get a controller
- do water changes
- do water changes
- do water changes
- always wash your hands with water only before puting them in the tank. During the summer a member lost his tank. It turns out he had OFF on his arms and put them in the tank (if I remember correctly).

 

[ReefKeeper1699]

Gotchya I definately wash my hands before I do that, arms included. Water changes weekly is something I definately never will stop on. I always think back at the day after my water change how great everything looks and responds. It's like a cup of coffee to the corals lol.

I recently added a ground probe and put my tank on its own devoted 20amp breaker. Ordering the b11s today for sure and just picked up 10 gallons of gas for the generator today.

One thing I want to consider is adding a second 300 watt heater in case one fails. Does anyone know how to do this? I don't want both kicking on and running at the same time. Do I set one a degree or so less the. The other so if one fails the other one will sense the drop in temp and kick on?

Also, as for my refugium I am getting a slight light dusting of detritus on my drain and return side. Maybe I should clean that up as well. Also the surface of the water in it sometimes developed a scum kind of or a sheet if that makes sence? Should I add a tiny power head down there pointing at the surface? If so should I put it in the middle section where I have my live rock and beneficial algae?

 

[JohnK]

Anything to skim or agitate the water will break up that bacterial slime on the surface.

If you are worried about heaters, think temp controller or full system controller. If a heater dies and stops heating, the tank cools pretty slowly and you usually have plenty of time to turn up the heat in the room to keep things happy until you can pick up a new heater. If a heater sticks on, it has the potential to cook your tank, 2 heaters isn't much insurance. I didn't even have a heater for several years when I used to run MH lights.

If the tank looks noticably happier after a water change, you might want to start trying to figure out what the water change is fixing.

 

[ReefKeeper1699]

Very true John I may stick with one heater in that case. I'm not saying everything looks bad before he water change I just notice a tiny bit more of a polyp stretch. Maybe it's the replenishment of additives from the salt.

Doing one tomorrow. Maybe I will try blasting all of my rocks with the power head for the first time to clean them off before the change

 

[JohnK]

Maybe I will try blasting all of my rocks with the power head for the first time to clean them off before the change

That's a very good idea to do regularly. Turkey basters work great too.

 

[ReefKeeper1699]

Thanks so much for the tips!!!! I know it's going to make a mess tomorrow when I blow the rocks off.... But the sock will clear it up. But I am sure if I do it every week it won't be as bad as this time. I will probably piss off all the coral when I do this lol and I always wonder what happens to the pod population when you blast all the rocks and they get sent into the water column....

I am considering taking long prongs and sturing up the sand bed every week too to agitate it.... I will have to be careful to not spike nitrates....

 

[P-Nut]

Gotchya I definately wash my hands before I do that, arms included. Water changes weekly is something I definately never will stop on. I always think back at the day after my water change how great everything looks and responds. It's like a cup of coffee to the corals lol.

I recently added a ground probe and put my tank on its own devoted 20amp breaker. Ordering the b11s today for sure and just picked up 10 gallons of gas for the generator today.

One thing I want to consider is adding a second 300 watt heater in case one fails. Does anyone know how to do this? I don't want both kicking on and running at the same time. Do I set one a degree or so less the. The other so if one fails the other one will sense the drop in temp and kick on?

Also, as for my refugium I am getting a slight light dusting of detritus on my drain and return side. Maybe I should clean that up as well. Also the surface of the water in it sometimes developed a scum kind of or a sheet if that makes sence? Should I add a tiny power head down there pointing at the surface? If so should I put it in the middle section where I have my live rock and beneficial algae?

I have 4 heaters for a 40 breeder all connected together to the controller. If one breaks and keeps on heating, the RKL will shut it down at 78. If one stops heating the rest will continue. Additionally, I have their thermostats set to to around 77, so they should stop before the RKL shut them down.

Anyway...you can have them all together. I don't see how that would be an issue.