Killing Frags

Imo, it sounds like you have a lack of beneficial bacteria in the tank. I think adding established LR or LS would help your tank maintain and cultivate the bacteria. Like Greg, I had a tough time keeping sps when I first set up my tank till about 9-10 months in. The new rock + sand just didnt have enough to keep sps(i believe). I could grow softies,lps,zoas,ect...but when it came to even caps they would bleach out and die after a few weeks. Now I cant get rid of some species that grow out of control. its up to you...JM2C
 
Water Changes

I had been doing 25% water changes twice per week before I added the LR and Damsels. Now I'm doing around a 25% WC every week. Do you think this enough given the water parameter values stated above in a previuos post?

jbundas said:
I don't recall if you mentioned this and I'm too lazy to read page 1 again. You could give your QT system a boost with a few water changes with water from your main tank. That's probably good practice in general anyway to help acclimate new corals to their eventual final home.
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Lr

Yes, I hear you Steve and I appreciate the response. The tank has been up and running with no LR or sand for around a year. A while back (a month or so??) I added some established LR from the sump of my display system. Perhaps I need to add more LR? But I thought that the benefit of LR and LS was limited to nitrification and denitrification of ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites into free nitrogen. In this case, more natural filtration could actually make things worse, right? Please understand that I am not trying to dispell your conclusion but instead I am trying to understand. If there is any other benefit to nitrobacter and nitrosomas bacteria, then more LR and/or LS could help things - I just am not aware of any benefit other than what I stated above.

Your experience is very interesting. Do you remember what the water parameters were when your colonies bleached? Specifically Ca, Alk, P04?
Thanks again for responding and please continue to offer suggestions - I really need some help figuring this out.

SteveDola said:
Imo, it sounds like you have a lack of beneficial bacteria in the tank. I think adding established LR or LS would help your tank maintain and cultivate the bacteria. Like Greg, I had a tough time keeping sps when I first set up my tank till about 9-10 months in. The new rock + sand just didnt have enough to keep sps(i believe). I could grow softies,lps,zoas,ect...but when it came to even caps they would bleach out and die after a few weeks. Now I cant get rid of some species that grow out of control. its up to you...JM2C
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Hi Dave

Hmmmm....good question. I am not sure what is on the algae crate and frag plug but it DOES appear to be algae. But I never have to clean the front glass and I never saw any hair algae breakouts or diatoms whatsoever in this system. Also, coraline algae does not grow fast in this system.

Dave, please continue to offer your insight. This thread is important to me and I know you have lots of experience with SPS (acros specifically). I value your opinion very much and hope you will continue to chime in here. When I give an opinion that could be contrary to yours, my intent is not to dismiss your analysis but rather to find out more about what the problem is with this aggravating "frag killing" system. Thanks again and please continue to offer your thoughts.:)

Aquaman_68 said:
Is this algae I see on the egg crate & frag plug in this pic? If so...it's not nutrient deprived!!!

http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/showpost.php?p=580543&postcount=34
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>My view is that the QT is already too sterile due to the low bioload. If this is the case (not yet proven) then additional filtration including skimming, live rock, live sand, etc. would further decrease nutrients.<

Possibly, OTOH, I think the problem is more likely to be some type of imbalance in the make up of the bacterial spectrum of the tank. I'd also consider adding some sand from an established tank. If you have sand in you main tank I'd just take some of that and add it to the Q-tank. If you are looking for nutrients, there will be plenty in the old sand from the main tank.

Just in the FWIW category, it seems that many people try to set up Q-tanks with a very 'clean' system. I don't think these do all that well. If you are going to keep a frag more than a few days in any system I think you are better off with a more 'natural' tank, one with live rock and some sand. Probably doesn't hurt to have a fish or two also, but from what I've seen corals can do well on Very low nutrient levels for a long time.
 
Sand

How much sand would you suggest Greg? Do I need to add just a small sample to get the bacterial colonies started? Or would I need a typical "sandbed" seeded with sand from my display system?

Also, could you please explain what you mean by "the bacterial spectrum"? This concept is new to me as far as reef tanks are concerned.


Greg Hiller said:
>My view is that the QT is already too sterile due to the low bioload. If this is the case (not yet proven) then additional filtration including skimming, live rock, live sand, etc. would further decrease nutrients.<

Possibly, OTOH, I think the problem is more likely to be some type of imbalance in the make up of the bacterial spectrum of the tank. I'd also consider adding some sand from an established tank. If you have sand in you main tank I'd just take some of that and add it to the Q-tank. If you are looking for nutrients, there will be plenty in the old sand from the main tank.

Just in the FWIW category, it seems that many people try to set up Q-tanks with a very 'clean' system. I don't think these do all that well. If you are going to keep a frag more than a few days in any system I think you are better off with a more 'natural' tank, one with live rock and some sand. Probably doesn't hurt to have a fish or two also, but from what I've seen corals can do well on Very low nutrient levels for a long time.
Click to expand...
 
>How much sand would you suggest Greg? Do I need to add just a small sample to get the bacterial colonies started? Or would I need a typical "sandbed" seeded with sand from my display system?<

I think a small amount would be enough.

>Also, could you please explain what you mean by "the bacterial spectrum"? This concept is new to me as far as reef tanks are concerned<

This is just a hunch on my part, so take it for what it is.....I think that in a natural reef tank environment there is a very complex web of bacteria, protozoa, and viruses, continuous adjusting their levels. I think when a tank is first started up this 'web' is much less likely to be stable, and more likely to contribute to poor health of a coral. There is little question that there is also a web of various microbes on the surface of hard corals.

I think that some corals are more suseptible to changes in the water chemistry and microbe levels and types than others. This is likely the reason that an LPS with lots of tissue might do okay in a new tank whereas an Acro with a very thin veneer of tissue might not fair well.
 
Sand

Thanks for the info Greg. I'll add a cup of sand to the QT system's sump tonight. It definitely can't hurt and it is easy to do so why not?:)


Greg Hiller said:
>How much sand would you suggest Greg? Do I need to add just a small sample to get the bacterial colonies started? Or would I need a typical "sandbed" seeded with sand from my display system?<

I think a small amount would be enough.

>Also, could you please explain what you mean by "the bacterial spectrum"? This concept is new to me as far as reef tanks are concerned<

This is just a hunch on my part, so take it for what it is.....I think that in a natural reef tank environment there is a very complex web of bacteria, protozoa, and viruses, continuous adjusting their levels. I think when a tank is first started up this 'web' is much less likely to be stable, and more likely to contribute to poor health of a coral. There is little question that there is also a web of various microbes on the surface of hard corals.

I think that some corals are more suseptible to changes in the water chemistry and microbe levels and types than others. This is likely the reason that an LPS with lots of tissue might do okay in a new tank whereas an Acro with a very thin veneer of tissue might not fair well.
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Frag Killing Update

It "seems" that adding nutrients and the 2 damsels to the QT has slowed or even stopped the STN on the remaining colony (pictured above). I stress "seems" since I won't claim victory until I see the colony begin to grow back over the bleached base.
 
potassium deficiency...could that be the cause? ive heard that it can cause tissue lose from the base.

just another thought. could test for it rather than theorize.
 
Potassium

Thanks for the heads up. If you have any links or other sources I would like to take a look at them.

SteveDola said:
potassium deficiency...could that be the cause? ive heard that it can cause tissue lose from the base.

just another thought. could test for it rather than theorize.
Click to expand...
 
Update

After deciding to add 2 damsels in my QT system, I am happy to report that I have managed to keep a frag alive in the system for almost 6 weeks. Previous frags in this system (large and small) had only made it to around 3-4 weeks. The only change I made (except for dosing Kent CoralVite once last week - I plan to continue to dose weekly) was to add the damsels and to feed them daily. Several observations:

1. Algae collects on the glass (never happened before)
2. The cheap little Prizm skimmer has been pulling out much more organic material. So much that I actually have to empty it and clean it!

So I am pretty sure that there are more organics in the water than before. Given that the water is "dirtier" and that the STN has stopped on the one remaining frag, I must conclude that the problem was a lack of nutrients in the QT water.

The next thing I'll look for is regrowth on the frag. So far it has not happened. I am actually thinking of cutting the tips off of the frag and remounting the smaller frags to see if I can get some growth.

So far I have not added any sand to the tank because I did not want to make too many changes so I could isolate the problem. However, I will do this in the future for the next batch of frags that go into the QT system.

Anyway, hopefully someone in the same situation will learn from all of this and ensure that the water in their SPS coral quarantine system is not "too clean" .
 
Congrats Chuck! Lets hope this was it and you dont have to worry anymore.

You are going to have to swing by and check out the new 180 I setup Ill give you a couple frags to test out
 
Qt

Things are much better in QT land. But it's tough to really say everything is ok. The frag that made it has been ravaged so it may still not make it. The only way I'll really know is to introduce a healthy frag into the QT system, now that it appears that things look better. I plan on fragging a colony in my display system for this purpose. Just gotta find the time.....really busy at work and busy finishing up my built in home theater component rack and shelves. Ray, you gotta stop by and see my HT system some time. We'll play some pool and have a few cold ones.



Ray said:
Congrats Chuck! Lets hope this was it and you dont have to worry anymore.

You are going to have to swing by and check out the new 180 I setup Ill give you a couple frags to test out
Click to expand...
 
chuck if your still having problems LMK as I might be able to help, my 15G frag/quarantine closed system is flourishing with close to 30 sps frags/mini colonies and i do run a very clean system.
 
qT system

Please post a description of your QT system. I am really interested in your setup.

chew* said:
chuck if your still having problems LMK as I might be able to help, my 15G frag/quarantine closed system is flourishing with close to 30 sps frags/mini colonies and i do run a very clean system.
Click to expand...
 
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