"Herbie" drains - WOW

[JohnK]

So I've been reading up on newer drain designs. "Herbie" and "Bean" dains looked pretty good on paper.

Having never seen either run in person I wanted to build a test rig to try out the "herbie" approach. Out of spare parts and a sacrificial salt bucket, I set up the following test rig;

-an Iwaki MD55 (should be pushing 900-1000GPH with head loss)
-pumping water into a 5 gal bucket with a "herbie" in the form of a 1" siphon and a 1" back up stand pipe.
-Ball valve on the output of the pump so I can dial it back (to avoid the overflow I'm expecting as I expect the "herbie" to be overwhelmed)

I fully expected to have to throttle the pump back a lot. After all, a 1" drain is not supposed to be good for more than 600gph, right?

Wrong! The "herbie" using a 1" bulkhead easily handles the pump/900+ gph, and is SILENT AND there are NO BUBBLES in the sump or the return flow. This is not "quiet", it's near silent. A standard duroso moving 400 GPH is LOUD next to this thing.

I'm super impressed with the "Herbie".

 

[coralcor]

any pics of how it works? or links?

 

[jamesdong009]

+1

I condensed my tanks and set one up using the "bean" method and couldn't be happier. I even took out the baffles in my sump because there was no need for bubble traps.

 

[jamesdong009]

any pics of how it works? or links?

Here's the link to Bean's method on RC

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1310585

 

[JohnK]

Pics just added

That's 200X turnover in a 5 gal bucket and NO noise OR bubbles.

 

[JohnK]

A "herbie" is a drain set up using two holes/bulkheads.

One is fully submerged and has a valve on it to restrict the flow. The setting of this valve will set the water height in the overflow.

The second bulkhead/standpipe is a back up. It is a bit taller so it sits above the waterline and only sees water if the first drain backs up. The backup is able to handle %100 of the flow if needed.

By doing it this way, there is no air mixed into the drain flow. This means a "full siphon" insted of the "partial siphion" you get with a duroso/stockman. This also means NO bubbles at all.

 

[JayM]

I think I just found the drain setup for my new tank!

Once I get it, you can come over and plumb it in John

 

[mahk]

Do you need to drill the bottom of the tank for this setup? Or can you just drill the side of the tank twice?

 

[number1gsxxr]

I went with the Bean Animal style, only slightly modified since I didn't feel like drilling a third hole. His design calls for a third hole as an emergency drain. Here are some pics of my setup. Overall I'm highly satisfied with it and I'm sure the Herbie method is equally good since I believe the Bean design was based on an older Herbie design.

 

[gweston]

I'm in process of building a 6' 125gal with the bean method. I have all the glass for the internal overflow and external box.. plus most of the plumbing. I just need to get around to ordering the various sized hole saws and bulkheads and assembling the thing.

I'll be documenting the process and the results... though it will be a good long while yet before I wrap everything up.

 

[dcforester1]

On the second drain what is the airline for, and is it under the water?

 

[gweston]

The traditional Bean design includes one siphon, a second drain (with the airline) and a third emergency drain. I guess the airline helps reduce sucking noise.

You basically dial in so the siphon line is draining optimally, with just enough extra to flow into the second to coat, but not gush in. I don't entirely understand why, but it apparently works. If one of the two first drains ever becomes blocked, the water level will rise, then flow into the emergency drain. The emergency remains dry unless there is a risk for an overflow.

The Bean thread is extremely LONG but a lot of good info in there about how to set one up. Lots of people posted questions with Bean personally responding.. the thread is still active with Bean still following along and responding.

 

[JohnK]

With the Bean overflow the airline is not submerged, but it is attached so that it sits just above the water line.

This way, the valve on the siphion sets the water level in the box. The second drain with the air line works like a regular duroso except that the flow is very gentle (so it doesn't create all the bubbles and noise). The second drain's purpose is to balance out any slight fluxuations in the box (that do occur with a "herbie"), AND if the water level goes up in the box, the air line will become submerged and that drain becomes a full siphion which will prevent a flood.

The third drain is an emergency just like the second in a "herbie" set up. That way, you basically have a main siphion, and then two back ups one of which will have a trickle of water going
through it normally.




number1gsxxr;
It looks like you have valves restricting both drain lines? Also looks like the air line is submerged? If so, I would strongly suggest you reconsider both.

By restricting both drains, you have no back up and if anything restricts the flow even a little you will have a catostrophic flood. By having the airline submerged, the second drain is converted into a second full siphon - Which then forces you to restrict that drain.

If you raise the airline so it's just above the waterline, you will not need to restrict that drain, AND the second will then be avialable as at least a partial back up.

If I misunderstood the pics, then Nevermind

 

[MisFit]

I did this a long time ago not knowing anyone else had done it or that there was a name for it. I drilled two holes in the back, on one bulkhead I had an elbow facing down in the tank (siphon drain) and one facing up (emergency drain). I had a valve on the siphon end to raise the water level up high enough to create the siphon without drawing air. Works pretty nice, its silent and Ive never had an issue. It is a good idea though to make sure that the backup can handle the full flow of the pump without flooding.

 

[dcforester1]

What does having the air line underwater do? Just curious. Do you really have to have the 3rd one? I know the second one is part of the system, but if the first two go I think you have a major problem anyway. I know you need to think of everything, but at some point you have to draw the line.

Or do the first two come together before they hit the sump?


I am def interested in this, because I am doing my tank over soon, and would like to quiet it down a bit.

 

[JohnK]

When the air line is slightly above water, it vents air into the drain. This is how a regular duroso works - the air is limited but there is some venting. That way you get a partial siphion, but not a full siphion. It's quiet, has a good flow rate, and you end up with a million microbubbles in the sump.

To test this, cover the air vent in your duroso. What happens? It will start a full siphion and the flow rate will increase dramatically. Within a few seconds the duroso will start flushing because of the increased flow rate. This is very noisy so you can't not notice it, and in the case of the bean set up it keeps the overflow level from rising. In effect, with the bean set up, you almost don't need the third drain, but it still wouldn't be totally safe not to have it. (the vented drain won't quite flow as much as a full siphion because it will be flushing and not continually operating at full siphion. You ALWAYS want the back up to be able to handle %100 of the flow just in case)

In the Herbie set up, there is no vented drain. There is a full siphion standpipe with a valve restricting it, and a back up drain with no restriction (which will turn into a full siphion if the water level rises). The way the water acts in this set up, you set the water level with the valve, then if it slows slightly the water level rises a bit. When the water rises higher over the standpipe the power of the siphion increases a bit and that keeps it from rising very much.

The bean set up has the third drain with the air line to prevent the slight fluxuation you get with a herbie.

Bean and herbie set ups both should work well, but the herbie might need occasional adjustments. The bean should not really need any tweaking. Both set ups should be able to handle a %100 restriction of the primary drain, with the only consequence being a loud noise from the back up drain.

 

[number1gsxxr]

The pic is a bit deceiving but my airline is not submerged. I do have true union ball valves on both drains however. My airline drain is only the slightest bit closed though.

I have two 1.5" drains and I've tried blocking either one at a time. One of my drains can easily handle the load but I know that doesn't mean much if both get clogged. I just really didn't have the tools or want to mess with drilling a third hole. If I ever get a controller I'll probably put a float valve in the DT that will shut off the return pump just in case. I doubt both drains will get clogged but you know how that goes...

 

[JohnK]

That works.

Is the valve on the vented drain restricted at all, or wide open? If your restricting it at all, I would suggest opening the valve all the way, then trimming the street elbow a bit.

This way, you would use the height of the elbow to control the flow through that drain, and the water level in the box. By doing so, you wouldn't need to restrict that line with the valve which would give you a much better saftey factor.

 

[Joshbd]

Restarting the Siphon

I have a coast-to-coast overflow with two 1" drains, and have tried this method in the past. While I really liked the results (i.e., no noise or bubbles), I had a really hard time getting the siphon to restart after I turned off the return pump for water changes.

Basically, with the return pump off the, the overflow empties and the drain line fills with air. When I turn the return pump back on, there isn't enough water weight in my shallow overflow to flush the air down and out of the line without opening the valve all the way, and then going through the hassle of dialing everything back in.

Does this happen to everybody, or am I missing some really simple way to restart the siphon?

 

[JohnK]

Can you post a pic or two of how yours is set up?

I know that with straight stand pipes going to the bottom of the tank the siphion restarts effortlessly. Actually I can't figure out how you could have a problem with the siphion not starting, but I must be missing something

How shallow is the overflow, and where are the holes drilled?