Amino Acids, let's try again

I find all of this interesting. I hadn't heard of amino acid dosing until the other day when I was reading about the new TOTM at RC. He mentions dosing AA's in his tank and I was going to do some research on my own and then these 2 threads popped up here.

Keep up the discussions, it helps us all learn.
 
Matt, Darren, please let's keep it civil.

I'll say it again (as I did on the last AA thread that went south)...back to the science please.
 
Well, still sick so I came home.

synchiropi, Those are interesting links. I found the last link..the pdf, to be most interesting. They state that they found amino's but state that they did not find cysteine. The article I've been quoteing states that they found taurine, which is a derivative of sulfide bearing amino acids methione and cysteine. The article in the pdf format also mentions taurine. I didn't see methionine mentioned in the pdf.
Is it possible that cysteine is actualy broken down by salt water, or the zooxanthellea themselves, leaving the traces of taurine?
Also, yesterday I did a standard google search on amino acids and acropora. After sifting through the pages of AA suplements for humans, I found an article (can't find it today for some reason) it might have been on Aims. The article stated that dfaa's were found in the waters surrounding coral reefs, and that coral skeletons examined were found to contain the same AA's found in the surrounding water, which would sugest to me that the corals are in fact absorbing dfaa's.
 
Has anyone heard of the Redford Ratio, the ratio of carbon,nitrogen and phosphate atoms in the dry matter of an organism.

Marine phytoplankton 106C 16N 1P
marine macroalgea 550C 30N 1P

"As a guideline, the RR suggests that nutrients are easily absorbed by organisms if they occur in the exact same ratio in the aquarium water. If not, a nutient-limited situation is likely to occur"

This confuises me a little. According to the article carbon would not apply to nutient limitation...but phyto and macro are considerable different in nitrogen also. Wouldn't that ALWAYS leave of with some kind of a nutient limitation of one kind or another?
Our tank water can't possibly match both at the same time.
 
BTW, I still find the idea of our corals kickin back a sixer of glycerols to be completely amusing :)
 
Coral

One Eye said:
BTW, I still find the idea of our corals kickin back a sixer of glycerols to be completely amusing :)

One Eye...where can I get a copy of Coral magazine? BTW....u seem to know a heck of a lot about chemistry.....u give me goosebumps :D
 
Aqua Addicts has back issues of Coral Magazine. I have all of them so far, so if there's one in particular you can't find, I'd be happy to let you borrow it.
 
Chuck Spyropulos said:
One Eye...where can I get a copy of Coral magazine? BTW....u seem to know a heck of a lot about chemistry.....u give me goosebumps :D

Chuck, AquaAddicts, Skiptons, Fishy Buisness, I think all our sponsors carry it.

Chemistry? Well Timothy Leary and I had a few "discussions" :D
 
Thanks

One Eye said:
Chuck, AquaAddicts, Skiptons, Fishy Buisness, I think all our sponsors carry it.

Chemistry? Well Timothy Leary and I had a few "discussions" :D

Thanks! Didn't Carlos Castaneda do some research in that area .....as well? ;)
 
Greg Hiller said:
Matt, Darren, please let's keep it civil.

I'll say it again (as I did on the last AA thread that went south)...back to the science please.
Greg,

I'm going to either keep it civil or take my skepticism on AAs elsewhere. I am really surprised and disapointed that this is now the second thread on the BRS forum that has gotten, how shall we say, testy, and this involves many people besides Darren (1i) and myself, including people I never would have figured to get in an argument over this.

Come on, people, what the heck is going on here?!?

I feel that I have been more than respectful to peoples' opinions that dosing AAs is helpful, even though I respectfully disagree, for who knows, it may be right? While dosing AAs, a prima facie bears some resemblance to ethanol dosing, I was clear that there is more science behind the AA dosing.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong and point to where I insulted someone

You either believe dosing AAs helps or it is unnecessary. I subscribe to the latter opinion at this time, but have said repeatedly that that opinion could change.

Now I'm going back to the science, but I will be sorely disapointed in the BRS if this thread deteriorates like the last one,

Matt:cool:
 
One Eye said:
Has anyone heard of the Redford Ratio, the ratio of carbon,nitrogen and phosphate atoms in the dry matter of an organism.
Actually, no. I am very familiar with C:H:N:O:p ratios, though. I tried to Google it but found no results. Is that the correct spelling?
One Eye said:
"As a guideline, the RR suggests that nutrients are easily absorbed by organisms if they occur in the exact same ratio in the aquarium water. If not, a nutient-limited situation is likely to occur"
I am not exactly sure what they mean by nutrient limitted, but I think they mean that Marine phytoplankton requires 16 N for ever P, while marine macroalgae requires 30 N for ever P. If there was only 20 N for every P in your tank water, the phytoplankton would be all set but the marine algae would be limitted in N.
One Eye said:
This confuises me a little. According to the article carbon would not apply to nutient limitation...but phyto and macro are considerable different in nitrogen also. Wouldn't that ALWAYS leave of with some kind of a nutient limitation of one kind or another?
No, and for two reasons:
1. The tank water could have 1 N for every P, at which point no one would be happy. It could have 20 N for ever P as mentioned above, at which point the phytopklankton would be happy but not the algae, and finally, it could have 35 N for every P at which point both would be happy. So the article, as phrased in that sense, is misleading.
2. The article leaves out an important dimension. It refers to the importance of the ratio of N to P, but fails to mention the molar* ratio of either N or P to the moles of algae present. If your tank water has only 1 N to 1 P molar ratio, and you have only one phytoplankton cell in that entire tank (!), then I would imagine it could get by just fine.

Matt:cool:

* What is a mole? Its not just an animal, it refers to a number of atoms (or things). A mole is a lot, though. It is 6.022 x 10^23. A mole of marbles would cover the surface of the Earth uniformly 10ft thick, I think. But atoms are small, so a mole of carbon weights only 12 grams. When we say molar ratio, we're talking about the number of carbon atoms to phosphorous atoms. A mass ratio is different, becasue phosphorous is much heaver than nitrogen.
 
No activity on this thread for a while. There were several questions raised that I think were actually answered in one of the papers that were mentioned. I read through the "Biosysnthesis of 'essential' amino acids by
scleractinian corals" - Fitzgerald and Szmant in Biochem, J, 1997,
322, 213-221.

In that study they fed corals either radio-labelled glucose, or the radio-labelled amino acids glutamic acid, lysine, or valine. They did the proper controls (IMO) to ensure that contaminating bacteria were not affecting their results. The feeding was done by simply putting the corals in filtered seawater with the various nutrients in the water.

First of all, clearly they had consumption of the amino acids, and the glucose from the water by the coral, and incorporation of the 14C labelled atoms into amino acids and other cellular constituents (proteins, etc.). They used several different species of coral as test subjects, including both photosynthetic, and non-photosynthetic corals, including one Acropora species.

SO, corals CAN take up amino acids (at least 3), and glucose direct from the water. It doesn't seem likely to me that there is much glucose floating around in seawater, too easily consumed a nutrient source. Corals CAN however receive sugars (such as glucose I would assume) direct from their zooxanthellae. The purpose of the study these folks performed however, was to try and figure out which amino acids were 'essential' to corals.

Essential amino acids are defined as those which a particular organism can not synthesize itself from simpler molecules. Apparently no one had previously done this work on corals. In humans we know that 10 amino acids are 'essential'.

These researchers showed that starting with glucose, corals can synthesize at least 16 amino acids, possibly 19, but they could not measure 3 of them. But corals cannot synthesize the amino acid threonine.

The researchers also showed that starting with the amino acid glutamic acid the corals could synthesize at least 14 other amino acids (though 5 were low enough to be considered questionable). From the amino acid lysine or valine corals could make the same set of amino acids as with glutamic acid.

In this study, the scientists were able to isolate the metabolism of the zooxanthellae, from that of the coral tissue itself. It is known (apparently) that zooxanthellae can on their own synthesize all of the 20 normally occuring amino acids. It is also known (referred to other papers) that "only a few non-essential amino acids such as alanine and glutamate are excreted from zooxanthellae". So...the algae living in the corals tissues are not exactly nice about handing over amino acids they make to the coral itself.

What does it all mean for us? We who want to grow corals fast that have pretty colors.. :) ..I'm not really sure. It is one interesting fact that the one amino acid they are sure corals cannot make is threonine. Since
corals can make at least 16, and perhaps all 19 other amino acids, they would not likely be 'starved' for most amino acids if they did not receive them from the water column in some form, either as food, or by direct absorption. Still it is QUITE possible that corals might grow faster?, or be more colorful? if they had additional access to some amino acids direct from the water column.

In the FWIW category the amino acids that are formed to the 'least' extent by corals are the same ones that are considered 'essential' for many other organisms: tyrosine, valine, methionine, leucine, isoleucine, phenylalanine, histidine, lysine, and tryptophan. Whether there would be some particular advantage to adding any of these over the others....? don't know

Amino acids in a pure form are actually pretty cheap, so if anyone wants to dose any particular one it would be easy to prep a supplement mix of your choosing....okay....who's first in line? :D
 
Greg,

Thanks for the wonderful review. I appreciate it. From all the sources online and your review, I managed to compile a pretty good estimate on which amino acids corals seem to need more than others (as you have described), and obtain verification that corals can take up amino acids from the water column. These were all results from scientific papers.

The result I am still looking for, and one that would be found in a reefing "paper" and not a scientific journal, is whether we need to dose amino acids. Moreover, if we do dose, would the amino acids reach the coral? The lab and a reef tank are very different. Still, it is very interesting information.

As I believe data is the best answer to questions, I was thinking of collecting water samples from various people's tanks to do an amino acid survey. You know, see what amino acids are present in our water column, and see if they are enough for the corals, or something is in fact deficient. I can easily do a total protein assay, but doing an amino acid composition is harder...

Matt:cool:
 
Matt,

>The result I am still looking for, and one that would be found in a reefing "paper" and not a scientific journal, is whether we need to dose amino acids.<

I think the clear answer to that can be had from our tanks. There are plenty of people who do not dose and have healthy tanks. I know some people that don't even have any fish and don't feed their tanks and still the coral grow. I've wondered about the sources of nutrient in these cases.....has to come from somewhere.

> Moreover, if we do dose, would the amino acids reach the coral? The lab and a reef tank are very different. Still, it is very interesting information.<

I think if you dose in a decent amount in a single bolus (say once a day? week?), then it is quite likely that at least some of the AA's are going to make it into the coral. They only incubated these corals with the AA's for 2-3 hours. Now...very low continuous dosing might NOT be a good idea since the levels might be too low to reach the coral to a significant extent, and might be consumed by bacteria in the water column.

>As I believe data is the best answer to questions, I was thinking of collecting water samples from various people's tanks to do an amino acid survey. You know, see what amino acids are present in our water column, and see if they are enough for the corals, or something is in fact deficient. I can easily do a total protein assay, but doing an amino acid composition is harder...<

I've run amino acid analysis before, it's rather a pain. I'm guessing that the levels in our tanks for most amino acids is going to be very low, and difficult to detect. In the reading of the papers did you see any mention of the level of various free AA's (not in protein) in natural seawater.
 
That was a very nice summary of a paper, Greg (Now, if you could do the same for some of these cell culture ones...). Thank you.

I think there was no activity because we got to the crucial point. What to do now? As you pointed out, there is clearly no need per se to add a.a.. The owner of the current tank of the month in Reef Central doses a.a. in his reef tank. Eventhought I do not necessarily think the tank looks very natural, the colors are just beautiful. Yet of course, the real question is if the a.a. dosing is the reason for this. Then of course, it might simply be a CONTRIBUTING factor. Maybe that is reason enough to add a.a..

I am personally amazed that something as physiologically elaborate as a coral is capable of absorbing free a.a. at all. At this point I am wondering if non-photosynthetic corals, such as the sun polyps, would benefit more or have more efficient transport mechanisms (with a lower affinity constant, or several of them) than photosynthetic ones.

Would I be interested in dosing a.a.? Maybe. The lack of any measuring capability is always disturbing. I am not even sure how could I estimate the uptake. Yet, there seems to be some evidence that the task is worth trying.
 
> At this point I am wondering if non-photosynthetic corals, such as the sun polyps would benefit more or have more efficient transport mechanisms <

Actually in this case I would guess the opposite, at least for Tubastrea. Reason being it captures really large chucks of food that will have plenty of protein with plenty of amino acids. I would think a mechanism to bring in very small quantites of amino acids from the water column for this coral would be a waste of biological effort...and that usually means that evolution will shed the ability. I'm just guessing though of course... :eek:
 
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