Complete SPS Loss, and only took 48hrs...No idea of the cause

[Joshbd]

Well, now I'm completely bummed. I just lost the vast majority of my SPS (we are talking completely white and 100% tissue loss), almost all in less than 24 hours. Worst thing is, I have no idea of the culprit. In almost a decade of reefing, I have NEVER had such a severe loss without a very clear reason (e.g. the electricity went out when I was away for the weekend once...).

Here's the story, perhaps someone can clue me in. I came back home from picking up a number of very nice SPS frags from Dong, and followed normal procedure of adding them to the tank (34G with 3G sump). Hands washed, brief acclimation, and into the tank one by one. Glued down just like always, which includes a small amount of epoxy, and then super glue between epoxy and frag, as well as between epoxy and base rock to make sure everything sticks. Everything looked great on the outset and parameters were stable as always (8.5dkh, 430 cal, ph 8.2-8.4)

Next morning, awoke to find the tank in a terrible state, severe tissue loss on most SPS, as well as hammer and bubble coral. Interestingly, neither birds nest look too terrible. Also, parameters were all still spot on (other than PH, which was a little low), and nitrates were 0. Immediately did a water change and replaced carbon. Did another water change the following day, but at that point, it was very clear the degree of loss. Now in day 3, the LPS are starting to look up again, but it's a graveyard for the SPS (both previously existing SPS and new frags). Some possible culprits:

-- Didn't wash hands well enough? Possible, but seems very unlikely given the severity of the loss. No idea what would be so incredibly toxic.
-- I opened and used a new BRS gel super glue that I hadn't used before. Again, seem unlikely...
-- I moved one paly frag, but didn't do any fragging. So, I wouldn't think any significant toxins would to be released. Alternatively, I supposed I could have added too many frags (6 or 7 in total, I think) at once, and generally pissed off some coral that released a strong enough toxin to nuke the tank?
-- The epoxy, like always, caused the skimmer to go nuts and create a massive amount of microbubbles. I often turn the skimmer off for a day or so, but this time I didn't figuring it would calm down quicker if I just let it do its job. Could this have been the cause? Something toxic on the microbubble's surface that adhered to the corals killing them? Did the microbubbles or epoxy create a significant change in the O2 levels?
-- The skimmer (or something else) caused a rapid, albeit temporary drop in PH (per my ACIII, PH went from 8.25 to 8 over the course of a few hours), but returned to normal levels by the following day.
--Others?

Anyway, just venting makes me fell a bit better, I just wish I knew what I did so I don't ever do it again! I've certainly had my share of coral loss, RTN, bleaching, etc. but never ever have I seen such rapid coral extinction, other than from a complete power failure (i.e., no pumps or heater for 24hrs). Anyone else have some ideas or also experience such a rapid SPS deterioration?

Thanks,

Josh

 

[freakit]

What do you wash your hands with?

I only use water no soap if I'm getting ready to go into the tank.

 

[Joshbd]

Yup, exactly the same for me. Just heavy scrub of hands and forearms with warm water.

Reading additional articles/threads on RTN, I am coming to the realization it was likely a combination of issues. In hindsight, I only acclimated for about 15-20 minutes, and should have gone slower and longer. I've never had a problem with quicker acclimation time before, but who knows. Also, I usually do a dip in CoralRX, but didn't this time since I was working with established frags from a reliable source, but perhaps a dip would have reduced stress? It's weird though that the RTN wiped out all the established sps, as well as new frags. Anyway, once I'm sure everything is 100% back to normal, I will start a SLOW and more careful rebuild process. Live and learn I guess...

 

[Overlook reef]

Wow! That is terrible. What epoxy did you use?

 

[PSU4ME]

That's terrible to hear. Personally, I doubt it was the length of your acclimation time. I usually bring the water up to tank temp and then dip in tank water (with bayer), rinse in clean tank water then right in so I don't think that was the issue.

Rtn is a beast and its cause is not well known or pinpointed each time. Most of my reading shows its probably bacterial so it seems like the addition on new frags and/or the process on "installing them" triggered something.

Did you dip the frags at all?

 

[delta]

RTN can create a chain reaction

The fact you bought frag and did not quarantine them is concerning. You have no idea what the corals have been exposed to and the exact difference of the environment they were in.
It can be just differences in how one runs there tank. and the health of each tank. There are things outside the norm that we do not see in testing or simple observation that can make RTN happen. All it could be is that your tank had the means for a bacteria to grow rapidly and the corals RTN'd or the stress of something else? cold in transportation, contaminants on your hands, the stressed corals pushed over the edge from curing epoxy, who knows exactly.

Understand I have experienced many hardships with reefing and why I now quarantine everything. think of it like a fish. Fish looks healthy but then you put it in quarantine for a few weeks and boom the disease shows up. If you put it in your tank the damage is done. Fish can get sick from transportation stress, corals are a living organism as well and suffer the same.

All you can do is move forward from here. Do some research on dipping and quarantining incoming corals. And come up with a plan. I quarantine my corals in a 2.5g tank so know it doesn't have to be a huge system.

In the end this is reefkeeping and as with any livestock you need to pick a procedure for introducing them to your system, while protecting your system. While there are some threads in the stickies many are outdated and dipping procedures have changed (for the better IMHO) So make sure to post asking others for their current procedures

 

[NHreefer]

I've heard of bad things happening when you add a lot of epoxy at once to a tank.

 

[22engine]

I feel your pain. I am experiencing the same issue now. Changes about 75% of the water in three days. I didn't add anything new and my params seem ok. So I understand how you feel with the wanting to know. Only thing I don't have a test for is phosphate

 

[GobyWanKenobie]

If you lost everything that quickly, I'm going to guess you introduced something bad into the tank, either on your hands or with the glue or epoxy. I can understand losing the new frags because of lighting or different parameters, but to lose even the old sps overnight, that's just baffling, almost like a poison. What else did you touch that day that might have been on your hands? I don't have the answers for you, but I do sympathize.

 

[GobyWanKenobie]

Did you check your equipment for anything out of the ordinary? Maybe it's just a coincidence that this happened after the new frags.

 

[Joshbd]

Thanks for info, experienced perspective are always appreciated. In terms of no quarantine being concerning (or the cause of the problem), I think it's an interesting discussion. My understanding is that quarantine, and largely dipping, is to prevent the transfer of pests and disease (including RTN?). In this case, I purchased the frags from Dong, whose frag tanks literally consist of thousands of very healthy and established corals (if folks haven't visited him, you should). So, that was why quarantine and dipping seemed less of a priority in this case. I probably should have at least dipped, who knows. Do dips like Lugols or CoralRX actually kill vibrio bacteria, the presumed cause of RTN, or just limited potential stresses parasites and such? It's not clear to me from online research.

Additionally, for those of us in smaller houses, and more limited funds, setting up a completely separate quarantine system that maintains the same level of consistency and precision (not to mention lighting) as the primary tank, really isn't an option. My concern would be putting a coral into an environment that isn't the best I can provide would lead to even greater level of stress and risk of loss, and would subsequently require further acclimation/stress when finally transferred to the display tank. Would a separate quarantine tank be ideal, certainly. Is it feasible for many reefers, including me, unfortunately not. Further, would it have prevented this particular RTN explosion, possibly? To the extent the RTN was caused by too much epoxy, which I think may have been the case (and lesson learned), it's not clear to me that a quarantine would fixed the issue. I completely agree with you though, that quarantining (if it had been possible) may have limited the loss to just new frags, again depending on the route cause.

Also, I agree completely that Dong's tank is run differently than mine, which could have been part of the issue. However, for what it's worth, I did test the Alk/Cal parameters of the water from the incoming corals, and they were very, very close to my own. Additionally, wouldn't these difference in how a tank is run be better mitigated through increase acclimation time, not necessarily quarantine/dipping?

 

[Joshbd]

Wow! That is terrible. What epoxy did you use?

I used TLF Aquastik, but the first half half of the tube hadn't caused any significant issues. Granted, I probably used less at once.

Did you check your equipment for anything out of the ordinary?

All parameters/equipment appear to have been (and are) fine.

What else did you touch that day that might have been on your hands?

I can't think of anything specific I might have touched, but if people have had particularly bad experiences with certain substances, I would be interested to know.

 

[PSU4ME]

In this case, I purchased the frags from Dong, whose frag tanks literally consist of thousands of very healthy and established corals (if folks haven't visited him, you should). So, that was why quarantine and dipping seemed less of a priority in this case.

With all do respect, you couldn't be more wrong on this comment. Dipping and QT do a lot of things and everyone's tank is different. Like Greg said, they could have been perfectly fine in Dong's system but your system might have been rip for something to trigger. As far as pests, it is very difficult to see all pests and some times you might just get eggs. I'M NOT saying Dong has any pests but what I am saying is that you should never leave that decision up to the naked eye. I've seen AEFW fall off in droves from what seems like a perfectly healthy coral.

Prevention is key and dipping goes a long way to help but it is never 100%.

Do some water changes and stabilize the tank. this type of thing happens to all of us without any clear cut answers.

 

[Joshbd]

With all due respect, I think I could have been much more wrong. For example, I could have said that I bought half dead corals that were visually crawling with bug and flat worms, yet threw them into the display tank anyway because dipping and QT are stupid and don't work. That would have been more wrong. I'm not suggesting dipping and QT don't have benefits, obviously they do. What I said was QT isn't an option for me, and I probably should have dipped.

The question I'm trying to answer here is, how likely is it that these measures actually would have prevented loss in THIS case? And if so, how/why? I'm curious to understand what specifically are the "lots of things" that these measures do with respect to prevention of immediate RTN, which seemed to be the primary issue here? I certainly could be wrong, but I would be surprised if bugs/worms caused such thorough and complete RTN loss in 24hrs. QT certainly prevents the spread of vibrio bacteria and RTN to the display tank, but how does it prevent RTN loss with respect to the newly acquired frags? Similarly, as I asked before, other than killing pests, what specifically about dipping prevents RTN, the primary drivers of which I understand to be stress related? If a sudden drop in PH, or toxins from the glue/epoxy triggered a stress event, would dipping/QT have mitigated the outcome? For the record, I'm in no way saying dipping/QT wouldn't help, again just curious to understand specifically how/why?

 

[STiTCH87]

Thanks for info, experienced perspective are always appreciated. In terms of no quarantine being concerning (or the cause of the problem), I think it's an interesting discussion. My understanding is that quarantine, and largely dipping, is to prevent the transfer of pests and disease (including RTN?). In this case, I purchased the frags from Dong, whose frag tanks literally consist of thousands of very healthy and established corals (if folks haven't visited him, you should). So, that was why quarantine and dipping seemed less of a priority in this case. I probably should have at least dipped, who knows. Do dips like Lugols or CoralRX actually kill vibrio bacteria, the presumed cause of RTN, or just limited potential stresses parasites and such? It's not clear to me from online research.

Additionally, for those of us in smaller houses, and more limited funds, setting up a completely separate quarantine system that maintains the same level of consistency and precision (not to mention lighting) as the primary tank, really isn't an option. My concern would be putting a coral into an environment that isn't the best I can provide would lead to even greater level of stress and risk of loss, and would subsequently require further acclimation/stress when finally transferred to the display tank. Would a separate quarantine tank be ideal, certainly. Is it feasible for many reefers, including me, unfortunately not. Further, would it have prevented this particular RTN explosion, possibly? To the extent the RTN was caused by too much epoxy, which I think may have been the case (and lesson learned), it's not clear to me that a quarantine would fixed the issue. I completely agree with you though, that quarantining (if it had been possible) may have limited the loss to just new frags, again depending on the route cause.

Also, I agree completely that Dong's tank is run differently than mine, which could have been part of the issue. However, for what it's worth, I did test the Alk/Cal parameters of the water from the incoming corals, and they were very, very close to my own. Additionally, wouldn't these difference in how a tank is run be better mitigated through increase acclimation time, not necessarily quarantine/dipping?

Unfortunately you can't test for bacterial infections. There could be bacteria in your tank, that your own corals have developed an immunity to as they've grown, that his colony was not immune to. Then when his colony dies, could have been that the bacteria ran amuck on what you got from him, and overpopulated in your tank so greatly, that your own corals could no longer keep up. It's like a vaccine. It can help you build immunity from getting sick, but if you sit in a vat full of the disease you were inoculated for, you'll still likely get it. Not saying his corals are bad, or yours, just saying that each coral is very different on what it can and cannot withstand. Even if from the same colony but in different tanks.

RTN is a tricky thing, and is still not fully understood. Or even mostly understood, really.

 

[STiTCH87]

Also, not to ask the obvious, but is there a chance you dosed Alk recently and swung the dkH up too quickly?
Do you run GFO? Could it be your PO4 dropped too quickly?

I don't feel like the Aquastik would be the culprit since so many use it.

To have tissue loss on a hammer and bubble coral, it's definitely from something that affects more than SPS.

I had similar happen to me once (complete tank crash) which started with a bacterial infection from a sick birdsnest.

 

[Joshbd]

Unfortunately you can't test for bacterial infections. There could be bacteria in your tank, that your own corals have developed an immunity to as they've grown, that his colony was not immune to. Then when his colony dies, could have been that the bacteria ran amuck on what you got from him, and overpopulated in your tank so greatly, that your own corals could no longer keep up. It's like a vaccine. It can help you build immunity from getting sick, but if you sit in a vat full of the disease you were inoculated for, you'll still likely get it. Not saying his corals are bad, or yours, just saying that each coral is very different on what it can and cannot withstand. Even if from the same colony but in different tanks.

RTN is a tricky thing, and is still not fully understood. Or even mostly understood, really.

Thanks, good point and a perspective I hadn't considered. I think one big lesson learned is to simply add fewer new frags at any given time. This hasn't been an issue for me in the past, but I guess it was only a matter of time. Fewer frags would seemingly limit the amount of any potential bacterial cross contamination, as well as the repercussions from a potential loss (be it from PH swings, glue/epoxy toxins, or otherwise). Also, I don't know how long it takes for a coral to adjust to new bacterial strains, but it sounds like longer acclimation (say slowly over 3 hours) may be in order as well.

 

[delta]

With all do respect, you couldn't be more wrong on this comment. Dipping and QT do a lot of things and everyone's tank is different. Like Greg said, they could have been perfectly fine in Dong's system but your system might have been rip for something to trigger. As far as pests, it is very difficult to see all pests and some times you might just get eggs. I'M NOT saying Dong has any pests but what I am saying is that you should never leave that decision up to the naked eye. I've seen AEFW fall off in droves from what seems like a perfectly healthy coral.

Prevention is key and dipping goes a long way to help but it is never 100%.

Do some water changes and stabilize the tank. this type of thing happens to all of us without any clear cut answers.

pretty much

I would just add t the OP I was not pointing at anything in particular. The point I was making is you are overlooking something extremely important. You should look at protecting yourself and the livestock you already put a lot of time, effort and money into.

 

[delta]

Thanks, good point and a perspective I hadn't considered. I think one big lesson learned is to simply add fewer new frags at any given time. This hasn't been an issue for me in the past, but I guess it was only a matter of time. Fewer frags would seemingly limit the amount of any potential bacterial cross contamination, as well as the repercussions from a potential loss (be it from PH swings, glue/epoxy toxins, or otherwise). Also, I don't know how long it takes for a coral to adjust to new bacterial strains, but it sounds like longer acclimation (say slowly over 3 hours) may be in order as well.

No fewer frags is not going to help, that is where you are wrong. And why you need to quarantine and treat all incoming corals. Acclimation over a few more hours is not the answer Either. the corals will either make it or not. the quarantine gives you a buffer so you do not affect you main system and the treatment will also disinfects the corals. personally I find treated corals do far better, color up faster and touch down/attach faster.

No one is trying to beat you up. many of us have been there and learned the hard way. Your best bet is to quarantine and treat for long term success. Try and look at what we are trying to convey try not to dismiss perspective as you disagree with part of the message. We are sharing what we have been through and learned.

 

[choff]

Sorry for the losses. I had a tank wipeout and it was devastating, but at least I knew why (cfl bulb feel into the sump)

I 100% agree on dipping. I dip everything and most of the time I replace the plug.

QT though? I get the theory of doing this for coral, but I'd like to know who honestly QTs their coral? Not talking fish, coral only.