Help; tell me I am wrong

[mvallee]

I have been thinking ICH on my fish all weekend and was planning on doing Hypo as I have puffers but getting so much worse and now I think I misdiagnosed.
Is this Marine Velvet or still really bad Ich. I think I will lose them at the rate they are detiorating.
suggestions? I have a quarantine not at Hypo, I would have to acclimate them and then treat with copper if I am right? Ugh!

 

[mnavick]

Some pics look definitely like ich, some others look like another disease (Yellow Tang and Bangai).

Look into the tank transfer method, has become a strong favorite for treating ich. ReefCentral has some amazing stickies on the fish disease forum.

 

[stingythingy45]

Looks like Ich and other issues like mentioned.
Yes, acclimate to a hospital tank and treat with copper or hypo. DT has to stay fishless for 8 weeks.
Are you using old tank change water from the DT to use in the hospital tank?
What size is this tank?
Have you checked to see if there's any ammonia?
How long has this tank been set up?
How quickly were the fish added?

 

[mvallee]

as I am a FOWLR tank with only a few soft corals and mushrooms I figured it would be easier to remove those and treat HYPO in the big tank 180G with the live rocks and all the filtration I figured it would be easier but if it comes down to copper I don't want to treat that in the big tank and would reverse the steps taken and get all the fish I have left in the QT tank and treat cupramine in the QT, I heard that is safest for Puffers.

Things were going pretty good, I did have a couple small ich outbreaks but always disappeared almost right away other than on the pajama cardinals. this weekend I did my normal 15 gallon water change the same way I have always and lost two fish within 10 minutes and the rest really looked like they were in shock, still no idea what happened scrambled to do some water changes, ran down to petco to by 30 gallons of ocean water and continued water changes and running carbon in my sump, most fish that survived seemed to be on the road to recovery but whatever stressed them took it's toll obviously.

I will continue to go Hypo if that could help in the DT I am at 1.019 down from 1.024 since yesterday and I was hoping to get in the low teens tonight with the hypo but if I have to treat copper in the QT tank acclimating them back up is going to be tough, unless of course I bring the QT into the same range.

Probably no right answers and really afraid I am going to lose our favorite fish over the next couple days Cowfish and puffers were like pet dogs to us.
I guess I should stay the course less stress on the fish and hopefully they can recover but puffers are losing their appetites and that's not good.
thanks

 

[Nicole79]

Dont cowfish release some nasty toxins when stressed?
I wonder if thats adding to the discontent of the other fish?

 

[mvallee]

so no other opinions on ich vs marine velvet from the pics, can ich look like what I see on my dogface puffer and the naso tang, such dense small white dots? I look at all the pics from google and they kinda look the same so I guess I can't expect too much from my pics either.

I am going hyposalinity and cross my fingers but getting a second QT setup for copper if needed for tomorrow. but will check back here for any advice.

not really sure about the cowfish, the toxin thing is reported to be a myth but so many swear they wiped out whole tanks I don't know what to believe on that one either but a good point, thanks for the suggestion

 

[bdaley]

I have kept long horns for many years, never had an issue with toxins, have had them stressed and even pass away with no issues, could just be lucky.

 

[mnavick]

I've never seen velvet but have experienced ich, and that's exactly what mine looked like.

Also cannot personally speak on hypo but have read you have to be ever so careful.

Some good knowledge base here

 

[phg1960]

If you are going to pull the few corals and treat the DT, you may want to consider treating with chloroquine phosphate. It's much more tolerated by fish. Still not safe for inverts, but it will not taint your tank the way copper will. Look into this treatment and if you are interested in going this route, let me know. I have some on hand and work in Hopkinton. We could make arrangements to meet up.

 

[mvallee]

well another 20 gallons of RODI water and the salinity is down to 1.017 and that is all I have made and warmed up. hoping to have 50 gallons for tomorrow made and warmed to make the final push down to 1.009 but I doubt that will be enough. Glad to hear ich can look like that just hoping to get into hypo before they (ich) drop off otherwise it will prolong the whole process.

I was at Tropic Isle today to buy some refractometer calibration liquid which they did not have grrrr now I have to order some, I will use RO to set it at 1.0 should be pretty close, then their fish guy told me 1.009 is too low and the fishes livers will shutdown in that low of salinity for an extended period of time but everything I have read is to the contrary. He said to keep it around 1.013 or 1.014 but then from everything I have read that will do nothing to break the cycle of Ich it will just irritate them and they will still be able to do their thing just not in the same kind of numbers and accomplish nothing.

the info is all over the place and leads to all this anxiety but my goal is 1.009 and hold it there for 8 weeks and raise it up over a 2 week period as long as everything stays healthy. I had read that article Mnavick linked to and it recommends 4 weeks which oddly enough is the number the fish guy at tropic Isle suggested so will do some more research and would love to hear from anyone who has had actual success with Hypo and what route they took but seems like 6-8 weeks is the magic number in most of my research and someone who I have seen lots of good advice from on this forum recommended the same.
Fingers crossed that 1.017 will be enough to help anyways and get us to another day.

 

[mvallee]

thanks PHG1960 some more interesting reading I just did a quick google and seems interesting but why is it not more widely recommended? my head hurts from all this reading I will have to follow up on this tomorrow.

 

[phg1960]

I think the lack of popularity comes from it being a relatively new treatment method. There are also others that don't like this treatment because you can't measure the residual concentration. I had good success with it when I was battling ich.

 

[ro_nicu]

I would set up a QT, dropping the salinity too much will kill your rock and only get you into more trouble.

 

[JohnK]

FWIW we talked by phone and I suggested "semi-hypo, IE 1.017 SG" as an alternative approach. Not ideal, but maybe a way to get things under control.

 

[freakit]

I did the hypo treatment on my fish. No need to acclimate to lower salinity. Just go very slow on bringing them back up. I kept the hypo at 1.009. After 8 weeks I started to add salt water to replenish evaporated water until my salinity was equal to the DT. You have to stay on top of the salinity. According to what I read, if the salinity goes above 1.009 you have to restart the 8 weeks of hypo. I can't find the sources because I also did ALOT of reading.


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[mvallee]

Lost a cardinal last night but that was the roughest looking of my fish yesterday. Everyone else seems to be holding steady not getting worse and the cow fish and porcupine puffer seemed to actually look better so hopefully this outbreak has reached it's peak and is on it's way down.the sparkle in the the porc's eyes has not come back though but I sure hope she turns the corner soon.

SG crept back up to 1.018 over night and another 20 gallon water change this morning has me down to 1.015- 1.016 so thinking I will creep back up to 1.017 by tonight. that was my magic number from our talk John that might make things get better and I think it is working. I still think full Hypo is the way to go but maybe in a QT tank leaving the DT fallow for 8 weeks. I have 2, 40 gallon breeders that I can setup but not cycled so hoping this work in the DT tank can like you said John get things under control and I can reassess and have a plan to go hypo 1.009 somewhere else and not destroy the biological filter I have in the DT.

appreciate all the help and suggestions and still reading up on chloroquine as many seem to think it is a real solution to ich and velvet but the biggest thing I found was a correct way to dose and measure as being the big drawback.
Fingers are crossed and hoping for some magic when I get home tonight.

The only one that has me worried is the dogface he looks swollen and sleepy but he still came to see me and ate so I think he is just sleepy, still very early for all of us here.

John I can't thank you enough for the call it was a relief to speak to someone on the phone as I don't know anyone with experience and though there were no quick and easy solutions for the Ich I think your suggestion of running carbon in my Sump was a life saver and Hypo over copper from everything I have read after the fact is still the right path to take.

 

[mnavick]

I'm currently using the Tank Transfer method after loosing 3/4 of my tank!!!! I had always "managed" living with ich, well this time it finally bit me
This has been sooooo simple, especially with Petco having their $1 a gallon sale (bought 2 20g tanks). Seems to also be the least stressful on the fish. Snagged a complete 55g setup off of CL for $100, which after doing a few more than recommended TT they will stay in there with some Prazi Pro treatments then back into DT after 72+ days.
Kind of going overboard on treatments and time but after losing my Vlamingii Tang,Achilles Tang, Anthia's and Pinktail Trigger (all VERY large) I N-E-V-E-R want to have this happen again.

 

[CoralJunkie]

Best thing ive ever done was set up a QT tank, not only does it help treat fish and inspect new fish but it's actually pretty fun to observe

 

[mvallee]

Definitely QT from now on, hope I never have to put any of my fish through this again, I can't wait for this episode to be over and start moving forward, ever so sloooooowwwwwwllly of course.

 

[delta]

I'm currently using the Tank Transfer method after loosing 3/4 of my tank!!!! I had always "managed" living with ich, well this time it finally bit me
This has been sooooo simple, especially with Petco having their $1 a gallon sale (bought 2 20g tanks). Seems to also be the least stressful on the fish. Snagged a complete 55g setup off of CL for $100, which after doing a few more than recommended TT they will stay in there with some Prazi Pro treatments then back into DT after 72+ days.
Kind of going overboard on treatments and time but after losing my Vlamingii Tang,Achilles Tang, Anthia's and Pinktail Trigger (all VERY large) I N-E-V-E-R want to have this happen again.

But it may be you lived with ICK and it wasn't actually ICK that was the killer. Many times other diseases will be masked and you never really know what was wrong. You look at his images and while it looks like some have ICK and they may, there are other indications it is something else.

But prevention is the way to go especially in a reef tank. No matter whether it is good or bad it is always easier to put it in a reef tank than get it out. Sadly most of us get bit first then we learn, I am no stranger to that method of learning curve. Definitely great to see more and more people adopting preventative measures