ChrisPchef
Well-Known Member
I’m curious to see what people say after seeing the ICP test results. What changes have you noticed since your original post either good or bad?
The struggle continues….
- Thread starter Syntax
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Syntax
Well-Known Member
Still declining. Performed a 40 gallon water change last week that hasn’t seemed to help. The water change was after I sent in a sample for icp.
OP
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Syntax
Well-Known Member
Agreed. Going to try a 50% water change soon and see if that helps.
I have tropic Marin A+ and K+ that I put in my 2 part, apparently not enough. I’m going to start daily dosing both per instructions.
BiGGiePauls33
Current BRS President
Have we ruled out any stray voltage?
This might be useful in understanding how things drift using different Ca/Alk systems.
www.reef2reef.com
How a Two Part Alkalinity and Calcium System Works, and Why it Matters
Those values are close enough that I would not be concerned about the mismatch at all. Thanks - Just what hoped to hear :)
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SteveDola
Good Tings
I dont think you can supplement deficient trace elements with water changes. You have to dose and then recheck with another ICP after your adjustments. Significant trace elements are lacking for coral health. I had similar results in strontium, manganese and iodine and started dosing with positive results. Once you get the levels under control, you may want to look into a balling method like tropic marin or a 3 part with trace.
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Syntax
Well-Known Member
That’s exactly what I’m using, BRS two part with tropic Marin trace A+ (added to alk) and K+ (added to calcium) with part C. Apparently I’m not adding nearly enough to the 2 part.
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Syntax
Well-Known Member
I have not ruled that out.
BiGGiePauls33
Current BRS President
Beli be it or not, there's been many that have lost sps to stray voltage, myself included.
OP
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Syntax
Well-Known Member
I’ll have to research how to test for it, been years since I’ve tested.
Chris.sturgis
Well-Known Member
You will need a volt meter and turn it to 200 or 120 ac. One lead goes to the ground of a plug and the other goes into the tank. Make sure the socket is installed properly since some older homes have non grounded plugs, if that is the case you will need to find the neutral wire.
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Syntax
Well-Known Member
Should it read 0 or is there an acceptable level of noise?
Chris.sturgis
Well-Known Member
if its 0 you have no stray voltage, you might see up to 1v through.
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Greg Hiller
BRS Moderator
Interesting, I looked though the ICP results, I've never run ICP on a sample from my tank. Everything looks pretty good except the trace elements, but I'm not sure I'd read too much into that as it's difficult to get meaningful numbers from tests when you get into those low ranges. Still, you at least know it's probably not TOO much of any particular trace element.
>I dont think you can supplement deficient trace elements with water changes. <
I disagree to some extent. Most salt mixes are made from fairly crude chemicals to save a buck. That means that with every gram of sodium chloride for instance, a bit of many other trace elements usually come along for the ride. If you had a tank with a lot of fast growing SPS (or other corals) I agree that supplementing trace elements just by water changes (particularly if you don't do them often) might not be enough.
After looking at this whole thread I'd still be inclined to say a fairly easy fix (that won't be a danger at all to your tank) would be to quickly get your alkalinity into a higher range. When I'm ever in a low alk situation I immediately do as follows. Yes, I know that the ocean is close to the same alk as your tank, but the the ocean is BIG and the alk/Ca/Mg and everything else doesn't change much. In a closed system such as we keep, I believe it is ALWAYS safer to keep alk well above NSW levels, particularly if your tank runs on the lower end for pH. In the short run you could instantly correct your (potential) problem with a teaspoon of baking soda per 20 gallons of water (dissolve in a bit of fresh water first). Check alk a day later and if it's not at least at 10 dkH (3.57 meq/l) add the baking soda again.
Also, I don't know what your VHO bulbs are really putting out. I'd be inclined to see the MH on for at least 8-10 hours/day. Particularly for corals at the bottom of the tank. Do you see a difference in health of corals at the top vs bottom of the tank?
>I dont think you can supplement deficient trace elements with water changes. <
I disagree to some extent. Most salt mixes are made from fairly crude chemicals to save a buck. That means that with every gram of sodium chloride for instance, a bit of many other trace elements usually come along for the ride. If you had a tank with a lot of fast growing SPS (or other corals) I agree that supplementing trace elements just by water changes (particularly if you don't do them often) might not be enough.
After looking at this whole thread I'd still be inclined to say a fairly easy fix (that won't be a danger at all to your tank) would be to quickly get your alkalinity into a higher range. When I'm ever in a low alk situation I immediately do as follows. Yes, I know that the ocean is close to the same alk as your tank, but the the ocean is BIG and the alk/Ca/Mg and everything else doesn't change much. In a closed system such as we keep, I believe it is ALWAYS safer to keep alk well above NSW levels, particularly if your tank runs on the lower end for pH. In the short run you could instantly correct your (potential) problem with a teaspoon of baking soda per 20 gallons of water (dissolve in a bit of fresh water first). Check alk a day later and if it's not at least at 10 dkH (3.57 meq/l) add the baking soda again.
Also, I don't know what your VHO bulbs are really putting out. I'd be inclined to see the MH on for at least 8-10 hours/day. Particularly for corals at the bottom of the tank. Do you see a difference in health of corals at the top vs bottom of the tank?
OP
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Syntax
Well-Known Member
There have been more than one study performed highlighting the inconsistency of icp, I think Paletta and Ross each came out with articles fairly recently. It’s hard to tell what could be causing the issues.
I’m going to raise alk like you suggest and also nudge nutrients up a bit. Nitrate was 11 this morning and phosphate was .06, those seem reasonable I guess.
I don’t notice any health difference from corals based on position in tank. The xho led’s put out about 80-100 par at the bottom of the tank. I’ll slowly bump up the halides to run longer .
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I don’t think you need to dose or even monitor trace elements to keep sps or any corals alive. Many people including myself never dose trace element and we’re using Instant Ocean salt.
Your problem seems to be a fundamental one. 7.5ALK is not too bad as long as you can keep it consistent. The key word here is consistency. Your parameters can be a little low or high as long as you can keep that consistent. When you’re operating at the low end of the spectrum though, you really don’t have much room for errors. And when I see people post a number on their parameters, that’s the number they get at the time of their testing. This can fluctuate throughout the day(carx can keep it more stable but corals have different rate of consumption at different time). The test kit also has a tolerance. So the 7.5dkh could be as low as 6.5dkh which is too low IMO.
Alk and temperature fluctuations are the main cause of slow sps deaths. Get your basic level consistent first and keep those frags alive before dabbing into trace elements.
Your problem seems to be a fundamental one. 7.5ALK is not too bad as long as you can keep it consistent. The key word here is consistency. Your parameters can be a little low or high as long as you can keep that consistent. When you’re operating at the low end of the spectrum though, you really don’t have much room for errors. And when I see people post a number on their parameters, that’s the number they get at the time of their testing. This can fluctuate throughout the day(carx can keep it more stable but corals have different rate of consumption at different time). The test kit also has a tolerance. So the 7.5dkh could be as low as 6.5dkh which is too low IMO.
Alk and temperature fluctuations are the main cause of slow sps deaths. Get your basic level consistent first and keep those frags alive before dabbing into trace elements.
OP
OP
Syntax
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your thoughts. I agree with what you are saying and I honestly don’t think I could keep alk more stable than I already do. I use a trident that I calibrate using tank water verified by salifert test kits. This is very frustrating because i seem to be doing the things that should lead to positive results.
The last tank I had I could grow volleyball sized acro colonies, and this tank has been a struggle since day one. Clams and lps are thriving and look great.
Maybe higher alk will yield better results in case there is a swing or that my trident is off.
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