Too Much Skimming?

[Joel A]

glad to see you in this thread Liam.

Your skimmer on a small tank is a prime example that you CAN over skim a tank... like i said in the beginning, it's not common... but it IS possible.


KSC- The bubble king 300 is rated for a much larger tank than a 100 gallon tank and runs about ~2000 or so dollars... the mercedes benz of skimmers if you will.

I'm not going to get into this with you... because "if i went down and hooked up my seaclone on my tank i wouldn't see a difference in my SPS system"... well yeah no S#@! that's because the seaclone sucks...

 

[Joel A]

Quote from Joel A,

"You want a manufacturer to set up there own tanks... and test the competitions skimmers in them? Well first of all they'd need the competitions approval.."

Why? Its done every day in industry and results published?

Jim

It's a time and money issue Jim... doing serious tests like that would take a lot of time and a lot of money. Plus... even if they did come out with "test results" proclaiming their skimmer is better than others... who's to say that their results aren't skewed? It wouldn't make a difference to the consumer IMO.. kind of like manufacturers rating there skimmers for "200 gallons" when the skimmer really belongs on a 10 gallon tank or in the garbage can... it doesn't mean anything because the manufacturer is saying it... and the results will always be biased.

 

[Jim Tansey]

Your missing my point, you stated that it would be necessary to have the approval of the competition to even conduct such a test, I questioned how you arrived at that point.

Jim

 

[Joel A]

Quote from Joel A,

"You want a manufacturer to set up there own tanks... and test the competitions skimmers in them? Well first of all they'd need the competitions approval.."

Why? Its done every day in industry and results published?

Jim

Your missing my point, you stated that it would be necessary to have the approval of the competition to even conduct such a test, I questioned how you arrived at that point.

Jim

That was just a thought... you know how in commercials on tv brand names always say "Our competitors" or something to that extent... but never say the actual competitors name. I thought there was some legal issue behind using a competitors name in advertising without having their consent.. but maybe I'm wrong.....

but that's kind of beside the fact anyways.

KSC- By all means if you want to share your opinion do so... but don't come in here stating YOUR opinion like a fact that skimmers are crap and they all do nothing... when the majority of the reefing population feels the exact opposite... FWIW I think you're opinion may be biased on skimmers simply because you've never owned a good one (like one over 200 dollars) AKA not a seaclone...

 

[dcforester1]

WOW, Im glad I didnt ask that question......

 

[KSC]

I actually have a pretty good skimmer in my algae infested softy tank. I was able to control the algae before I actually hooked the new skimmer up, but it's been running for a week now. Here's a "comparison" that was done by a great vendor, pitting the $199 Vertex (this skimmer has been on a sale for $150 a few times, not much more than a Seaclone) I bought against one of those new fangled cone BMW skimmers which sells for $800. I think it's pretty funny myself... http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1644119
What does this prove? Nothing. But if they did actual testing I'd bet they pulled out similiar things, some good, and some bad. Is this a good skimmer?

That was just a thought... you know how in commercials on tv brand names always say "Our competitors" or something to that extent... but never say the actual competitors name. I thought there was some legal issue behind using a competitors name in advertising without having their consent.. but maybe I'm wrong.....

but that's kind of beside the fact anyways.

KSC- By all means if you want to share your opinion do so... but don't come in here stating YOUR opinion like a fact that skimmers are crap and they all do nothing... when the majority of the reefing population feels the exact opposite... FWIW I think you're opinion may be biased on skimmers simply because you've never owned a good one (like one over 200 dollars) AKA not a seaclone...

 

[JayM]

We're all sucked in a little by the marketing maybe, but just from a physics comparison, the larger skimmers move more water, have more bubble surface area, and larger necks.....so it seems like it's axiomatic that they are going to do more nutrient export.

It seems to me that a better check for the side-by-side would be to find out how much organic matter was removed in the 400mL of skimmate, plus how much gunk ended up in the necks.

Of course, this could also just be cognitive dissonance and rationalization for the cost of the MSX skimmer I bought 6 months ago....

 

[KSC]

Here's a nice summation of the article....

"About skimmers:
In the latest issue of Advanced Aquarist, a study is published which details the efforts of a team of chemists at Penn State to develop an effective quantitative method for assessing the performance of protein skimmers. To date, most if not all attempts to do so have been qualitative, not quantitative.

Highlights, and some additional conclusions that can be derived:




There is zero substance to most or all skimmer manufacturers claims that their technology is better at removing TOCs/DOCs.

Needlewheel, venturi, airstone, downdraft, etc... makes no difference in ability to remove TOCs... they all perform pretty much the same.... the difference between the various skimmer engineering technologies is in how much space they take up, and how much energy is consumed in the process of removing TOCs.

Skimmers can only remove ~30% of TOCs, after that, they are ineffective. While some el cheapo small skimmers cannot perform up to this level due to poor design, most of the common brands do.

Skimmers typically do not need to be operated 7x24; in their tests, nearly all TOC removal ocurred that will ocurr in <2 hours of operation. 7x24 operation is just a waste of energy.

Overskimming is impossible; corallary: bigger is not necessarily better. Therefore, skimmers should be right-sized, not over-sized for a given system.

GAC is much more effective at TOC removal than skimmers; on a small system, a skimmer is (arguably) not worth the expense or space consumed; GAC alone is fine. On larger systems, GAC by itself is just too expensive to use solely, so a skimmer is highly benficial from the cost perspective.

Skimmers cannot take the place of routine regular water changes.

Recirculating skimmers offer some minor performance gain over traditional single-pump designs... increasing the "dirty" water flow through the skimmer is more effective than recirculating water to be "cleaned again"."

 

[Sherri]

I am a bit confused because the first paragraph seems to negate the claims below???? So it is all opinion versus data? Just trying to understand ...

 

[Joel A]

I actually have a pretty good skimmer in my algae infested softy tank. I was able to control the algae before I actually hooked the new skimmer up, but it's been running for a week now. Here's a "comparison" that was done by a great vendor, pitting the $199 Vertex (this skimmer has been on a sale for $150 a few times, not much more than a Seaclone) I bought against one of those new fangled cone BMW skimmers which sells for $800. I think it's pretty funny myself... http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1644119
What does this prove? Nothing. But if they did actual testing I'd bet they pulled out similiar things, some good, and some bad. Is this a good skimmer?

Care to share what your "good skimmer" is?

FWIW those tests prove nothing... the vertex skimmers are great for the money... in fact i'm going to buy a vertex cone (made by royal exclusiv though). I could throw a seaclone in a cesspool and make it look like its a better skimmer than an ATB as well.. that doesn't mean it is though.

Like everything in this hobby, you get what you pay for....
I think you'll realize when you look around at the premier tanks of the club that they all run a good skimmer. They might not all run 2000 dollar skimmers, but they all run good skimmers...

 

[Joel A]

Here's a nice summation of the article....

"About skimmers:
In the latest issue of Advanced Aquarist, a study is published which details the efforts of a team of chemists at Penn State to develop an effective quantitative method for assessing the performance of protein skimmers. To date, most if not all attempts to do so have been qualitative, not quantitative.

Highlights, and some additional conclusions that can be derived:




There is zero substance to most or all skimmer manufacturers claims that their technology is better at removing TOCs/DOCs.

Needlewheel, venturi, airstone, downdraft, etc... makes no difference in ability to remove TOCs... they all perform pretty much the same.... the difference between the various skimmer engineering technologies is in how much space they take up, and how much energy is consumed in the process of removing TOCs.

Skimmers can only remove ~30% of TOCs, after that, they are ineffective. While some el cheapo small skimmers cannot perform up to this level due to poor design, most of the common brands do.

Skimmers typically do not need to be operated 7x24; in their tests, nearly all TOC removal ocurred that will ocurr in <2 hours of operation. 7x24 operation is just a waste of energy.

Overskimming is impossible; corallary: bigger is not necessarily better. Therefore, skimmers should be right-sized, not over-sized for a given system.

GAC is much more effective at TOC removal than skimmers; on a small system, a skimmer is (arguably) not worth the expense or space consumed; GAC alone is fine. On larger systems, GAC by itself is just too expensive to use solely, so a skimmer is highly benficial from the cost perspective.

Skimmers cannot take the place of routine regular water changes.

Recirculating skimmers offer some minor performance gain over traditional single-pump designs... increasing the "dirty" water flow through the skimmer is more effective than recirculating water to be "cleaned again"."

Lol, who wrote that, Dong? I'm not even going to read the rest of the article after seeing that...

FWIW I do agree that some skimmers aren't worth 2000 dollars... I think it's ridiculous as well... the materials aren't worth 2000 dollars, its the name and the reputation... but if you want the best skimmer around, then 2000 dollars is what you're going to have to pay.

So based on how well that vertex skimmer "performed" why aren't you running one? Like you said it's only ~200 dollars.. or is that over priced and over hyped too? Hell it's only a cylinder shaped plastic thing... that doesn't do anything anyways... everyone just runs them for looks and because they think they have too, right?

 

[Joel A]

Sorry KSC- I just realized you said the Vertex skimmer, that i bought. Disregard me asking you what you're running.

 

[Joel A]

Ok... to sum everything up for the way i feel in this thread (then i'm going to be done with it).

My first point- Over skimming is possible... not a likely scenario for most average or even extreme hobbyists, but it is still possible.


My Second Point- You may be able to run a skimmerless tank, and you may or may not be able to do so successfully. If that's what makes you happy, and you do not want to hook up or spend the extra money on a skimmer, than all the power too you. That said though, the majority of people who try to run a skimmerless tank larger than say 30 gallons or so, will have a hard time keeping nutrients anywhere near where they should be, and will likely have to do A LOT more water changes. The majority of people are much better served running a tank with a quality skimmer... not only is it more convenient so you don't have to do quite as many water changes, but it's also increases nutrient export in between water changes. I'd also like to add skimmerless tanks are generally geared more towards LPS and Softy tanks than SPS.

My Third point- There's a reason certain skimmer cost more.. they perform better, are built better, are more efficient, and have better customer service. All that said though, the extra money may not be worth it for your particular application. any people utilize (myself included atm) skimmer that are priced less than 250 dollars and get great results out of them.

 

[dz6t]

To sump up my points, this is a hobby, lighten up Kiddo.

 

[jackthestrat]

To sump up my points, this is a hobby, lighten up Kiddo.

But...but...someone on the internet is WRONG!