LFS vs. Online discussion split from FosterSmith Poll

[ScottM]

I am amazed at ow critical people are of Matt for voicing his opinion. right or wrong, there's no reason for

Insult removed....also think you're not here for a legit conversation or debate anymore. I think you just like to hear yourself talk.

just because i don't agree with people doesn't warrant attitude.

 

[Matt L.]

Insult removed.

Personal attacks are not permitted in these discussions.

Just because you disagree with a point of view doesn't mean you should personally attack the person who believes it.

And if you do not like a certain discussion, you should simply not participate in it. Don't respond in a manner that will entice moderator intervention.

We were having an open and honest discussion over whether patronizing LFSs deserves some consideration above and beyond the price they offer. This may seem like a trivial matter to you, but the reprocussions affect the BRS itself.

Everyone here has minded their manners up until this point. Nothing was said that wouldn't be said in person.

Many of us with differing points of views are friends outside of this discussion, and I wouldn't hesitate to offer assistance to anyone here in this thread in a heartbeat. Friends are allowed to have a discussion.

I think you are taking things here wayyyy too personally.

Matt

 

[Moe_K]

I did some editing. Please refrain from personal attacks or name calling.
Also, please don't quote the insult, just report it.

Lets get back to the discussion of ordering products online or buying local.

Thanks.

 

[Yaktop]

amazing, you might think this was a political discussion.

how's those Red Sox doing. now theres something you can agree on. Terrible.

Glad to see the edit explanations

 

[Matt L.]

amazing, you might think this was a political discussion.

how's those Red Sox doing. now theres something you can agree on. Terrible.

Glad to see the edit explanations

(The sox season turned so awful it gave poor John Lester cancer *sigh....*)

You would think so, but I did feel this was an important discussion to have, whereas I have long since gone into semi-retirement on political threads.

Matt

 

[dz6t]

I don't think by twisting other people's words in order to create more drama is the right way to carry out a productive discussion. I think we should drop the issue altogether. In the future, I hope someone will learn to respect other people's choice of how to spend their money. I really don't care where you buy your fish. I have no problem with Matt or anyone buying from LFS (why should I? it is your money, not mine). In return, please don't tell me where to spend my money. It is none of you business, Matt! Period!

Matt, if you did not intrude in my pooled order and whatever consequence that caused, we don't need to have all these disscussion at all. Good luck and mine your own business. Thank you.

 

[Rob]

So when we placing the order?

 

[RichConley]

Not an LFS anymore but As a matter of fact yes,
But you still didn't answer,
Do you have a QT system?
Do you risk it and tank the animal?
Or do you Kill it?

I'll add one more question,
A few times it has been stated that the wrong fish was shipped. Waht happens to that fish, what if it's not reef safe or not compatable with your other livestock?
Tank it and cross your fingers?
Or kill it because your getting a refund and it's only a fish?

I'm not arguing either side here, only curious to know how you ensure the ongoing health of your system when buying sight unseen.

Marc, I have never seen an LFS in this area that is willing to take back a sick fish.

And even if they do, chances are its just going to die there anyways. From the fish/cruelty perpective, whats the difference between it dying in my qt, and dying in the LFS?

 

[RichConley]

It's amazing! LA ships miracle fish!

Seriously, Dong, this is a laughable assertion.

Like I've said before, I can understand why some people would take the lower cost route with ordering online. Or maybe they don't have a means of transportation to a LFS, or its more convenient otherwise. Those are, in my opinion, legitimate reasons.

But don't delude yourself into thinking that buying sight unseen is somehow a safer practice than buying a fish right before your eyes. As Marco said:

Matt

Matt, why would Live Aquaria's fish be less healthy than the LFS? They go through one less acclimation, and spend less time in store tanks.


I have to agree with Dong. I've seen a LOT of liveaquaria fish, and I've never seen one that didnt look phenomenal.

 

[Corwyn]

Corwyn, maybe you haven't been to The Aquarium Gallery in some time, we have only found that place in the last few months, but everytime we have gone in there since, almost all of the fish have prices marked on the glass. The corals do not (usually) but the fish do.

As I said, maybe the marked prices are a new thing, I don't know, we only found it a few months back. Maybe they weren't marked when you went.

-Gina

Yes the fish incident I related was a few months ago. But I was there on
Monday and some fish were not marked and NONE of the corals were.

C

 

[Matt L.]

Matt, why would Live Aquaria's fish be less healthy than the LFS? They go through one less acclimation,.... I have to agree with Dong. I've seen a LOT of liveaquaria fish, and I've never seen one that didnt look phenomenal.

Rich,

I never meant to imply that LA fish would be less healthy. To the contrary, I, too, have heard very good things about the health of LA fish. And we all know the LFSs around here carrying awfully diseased fish in contrast.

What I was giving Dong grief about was his assertion that "...all fish received from LA are healthy and none develop ick or any visible parasites." I just don't believe that of all the thousands of orders LA must place each day, none of their fish have disease. Hence the miracle fish joke.

Personally, I think that being able to see your fish before you buy them is one reason to shop locally, but by no means the only reason.

To me, and again for clarification this is just my opinion, but I feel that purchasing fish sight unseen is like biking without a helmet. It may not be against the law. You may have your legitimate reasons. It may work out for you in the short term. But to me, it just seems like high risk reef behaviour.

Matt

 

[Matt L.]

Yes the fish incident I related was a few months ago. But I was there on Monday and some fish were not marked and NONE of the corals were.

I finally made it up to the AG a few weeks ago, and I was very pleased.

It is a new competition for my favourite LFS.

When I was there, the fish were clearly marked. I also think the store is a work in progress, and maybe they haven't gotten around to marking the corals yet.

The LFS I shop at often do not have everything marked.

Now this is not the AG, but at two other good stores in the area, I found that the price of an item can be subjective, marked or otherwise.

Matt

 

[RichConley]

To me, and again for clarification this is just my opinion, but I feel that purchasing fish sight unseen is like biking without a helmet. It may not be against the law. You may have your legitimate reasons. It may work out for you in the short term. But to me, it just seems like high risk reef behaviour.

Matt

(I think biking without a helmet actually is illegal in massachussets, just never enforced)

Matt, I agree with you in part, but the quality of fish I've seen from Live Aquaria has just been so outstanding that I dont worry about it. From buying fish from them, it just seems like they get subjected to much less stress than fish from most LFS.

Combine Less stress, lower price, and a 30 day guarantee, and it just seems like it makes the LFS the high risk choice.

(part of this may be an offshoot of the fact that IIRC, you're of the "Ich can be eliminated" group and I'm in the "ich is always present" group, so I dont feel bringing in a fish with Ich is all that much of an issue...garlic and hypo.)

 

[Chris L]

to be completly honest guys this was a good debatable thread in the beginning but it has turned in to a person jab fest between both mattl and dong. if in fact that is all you want then take it to pms please. but this thread in my opinion has out lived its usefulness as no one will concead the fact that people have a right to shop where they want PERIOD. if personel attacks and insults do not stop imediatley i will request to lock this thread.

the rules are simple keep it clean, keep it civil

and a personel request from me is to please for god sakes stop repeating the same post over and over again trying to convert opinions to your own ( on either side ) let people make there descisions and do not criticize them for it

thanks

 

[Ultramarine]

To Matt: I think what Dong meant in his post was that none of the fish he received from LA were sick and none of them developed ick. Not that LA has miracle fish. Although apparently they are close to it.

 

[dz6t]

Not that LA has miracle fish. Although apparently they are close to it.

Come to think of it, you got a point there. Also, most of the fish I received are bigger than I expected.

 

[Matt L.]

(part of this may be an offshoot of the fact that IIRC, you're of the "Ich can be eliminated" group and I'm in the "ich is always present" group, so I dont feel bringing in a fish with Ich is all that much of an issue...garlic and hypo.)

I feel so remembered. Wow.

Yes, I am (kind of) of the Ich can be eliminated point of view, although at the time of that discussion, I was practicing the Ich can be managed in my system philosophy.

And I was doing so well, until I introduced something other than Ich into my system.

I lost all my fish except my beloved Majestic Angel in roughly 72h.

Matt

 

[Matt L.]

to be completly honest guys this was a good debatable thread in the beginning but it has turned in to a person jab fest between both mattl and dong.

I agree that this was a necessary discussion to have in the club (a-gain), but I disagree that it degenerated into a jab fest. At least I don't feel like Dong was taking jabs at me.

I have the utmost faith in our moderators and our club members. Yeah, things got a little rought there for a few posts, but we corrected ourselves and have been back to having a discussion for over 12 hours now.

if in fact that is all you want then take it to pms please.

We actually had been PMing each other as well as posting here

but this thread in my opinion has out lived its usefulness as no one will concead the fact that people have a right to shop where they want PERIOD.

This discussion was never about someone's right to shop somewhere. It is an absolute given that at the end of the day, people have the undeniable right to shop wherever. I made it very clear that I used to order online in the past quite a bit, and still do order some drygood stuff online.

The debate in this thread was always about what impact pooled orders from online vendors have on the BRS club itself.

if personel attacks and insults do not stop imediatley i will request to lock this thread...the rules are simple keep it clean, keep it civil.

I think the hiccup already passed. Please trust us to moderate this thread ourselves, and if necessary, invoke the moderators.

Matt

 

[chrisc]

Forgive me, I'm new here and I have found this thread... interesting... to say the least.

So, I figure I'll stick my foot in my mouth as my first post.

I've shopped both online and at LFS's. I have good and bad experience with both.

But... we still live in a (mostly) free market economy. If Joe Fish down at the LFS can't keep his store open because everyone is shopping online and it causes him to close down, then what do we do for "leaking bulkheads at 3am"? Well, after this happens a few times people will complain (online of course) that there is no local place to buy bulkheads. If there is money to be made servicing leaking bulkheads at 3am, then someone will start a business around it. And if they don't, then it's because there is really is no money in it. People will learn to keep a couple extra bulkheads on hand.

By shopping at the more expensive LFS instead of cheaper online vendors (ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL) you are just prolonging the inevitable. Remember "Buy American"? A lot of people said it for a long time, and a lot of people did buy American, but overall it didn't work. American industry is in the pooper. Overall, an industry can't stay profitable with goodwill. Ultimately, the all mighty consumer decided that cheaper was better than American industry.

You are trying to keep businesses going with goodwill, and you are pounding people over the head with reasons they should shop there. Ultimately, the good old American dollar is going to win out. Look at Walmart and Home Depot. What happened to all the small groceries and the mom and pop hardware stores? They could not compete on price. Now, at the mega chains, the service sucks, the staff usually have no idea what they are talking about if you have questions, but you save a buck. Why is a small LFS any different? How can it survive when it cannot compete on price.

I really would like the LFS stores to stick around. It is nice to walk in there and have a look at the livestock and ask questions. It's nice to see something before you buy it. But, in the long run, if they cannot compete on price and then I don't see how they can succeed.

I also fly RC airplanes. The same thing is happening to that industry. Online stores are really pinching the local guys hard; well, the few local guys who have survived this long. In fact, it is even worse there as we are talking all dry goods; no unique living organisms factor into the equation.

Unfortunately, there are too many shoppers that don't understand "value added service" and too few that do. Most people here have been into the LFS a few times. If they don't see any added value in shopping there as opposed to online, then I don't understand how a discussion is going to change their minds. You either get it or you don't. It's not like people have never walked into an LFS before.

And it is only going to get worse for the LFS's. You have concerns about buying online. The big online stores *know* you have concerns about buying online. I'm sure they are working on ways to alleviate those concerns so that you will start buying from them. We are already starting to see "This picture is a picture of the actual coral you will receive" type ads from online stores. How long will it be before they have "This video is a video of the actual fish you will receive"? I betcha it's coming down the road. Then the online companies will have price and convenience going for them.

Now... if LFS's had a better web presence, then I think that would help them tremendously. Does the LFS have a computer inventory system? Is there some way to get it on the web so people can see what is in stock? Can they post pictures of their livestock on the web? That will go a long way in helping me to get their business. Does such a system costs $$$, yes, but that's the price of getting and keeping customers these days. Does this turn you into an online store? Not really, it's more like the best of both worlds.

I'm sitting here writing this a little after midnight. I'm thinking I want a new coral. Do I go to liveaquaria.com, or go to my new favorite LFS super website to see what's in stock there. At LA I have to pay big bucks for shipping (which cuts slightly into the discounted price) and I have to wait possibly one or two WHOLE DAYS before I get my new beauty... But my LFS's super-duper website has a very nice SPS at an OK price. I can get it TOMORROW... perhaps I'll see some nice shiny things and buy a few while I'm there.

I know some LFS's do a weekly email list of new products (along with prices). I think that is a step in the right direction, but there is more that can be done to capture us web shoppers.

Some might counter "But you can call and ask what we have in stock and what the price is". Well, I don't ask for directions when I'm lost, and I never, ever, ever call a store to see what the price is, or if it is in stock. Some will add that I'm an idiot, but I'm sorry, if you want my business you have to cater to the idiot consumer.

In summary, I guess I have to say nothing in this thread swayed me to pay more for livestock at an LFS that I could otherwise get cheaper online, with a shopping experience I have grown to enjoy.

Wow, that's a rant huh? How's that for a first post?


Chris

EDIT:

Whoops, just saw this:

"The debate in this thread was always about what impact pooled orders from online vendors have on the BRS club itself."

I guess I missed the point while reading the 8 pages in this thread. Geez, how'd that happen? On whim I'd say that pooled orders from online vendors ahould have no impact on the club, other than saving money for club members. I'd also say that pooled orders from LFS's should have no impact on the club, either positive or negative, other than saving money for club members. At least that is how I'd assume a non-profit operates. I'm not a member yet, and have no idea how it is supposed to work here.

 

[Gina McReeferson]

Welcome Chris.