LFS vs. Online discussion split from FosterSmith Poll

[fanaglethebagle]

Wow, I dont understand people arguing over opinion.
All I can think of is someone going
"That song is bad because I dont like the type of music."
And then trying to convince people who like that type of music that the song is bad.

 

[dz6t]

Whoops, just saw this:

"The debate in this thread was always about what impact pooled orders from online vendors have on the BRS club itself."

I guess I missed the point while reading the 8 pages in this thread. Geez, how'd that happen? On whim I'd say that pooled orders from online vendors ahould have no impact on the club, other than saving money for club members. I'd also say that pooled orders from LFS's should have no impact on the club, either positive or negative, other than saving money for club members. At least that is how I'd assume a non-profit operates. I'm not a member yet, and have no idea how it is supposed to work here.

Welcome to the club, Chris. Your first post is fantastic. Nice way to introduce yourself. You are a member as soon as you signed up (just not a "Paid" member yet). You don't have to pay to enjoy all the benefit here and we treat all paid and non-paid member the same.

 

[~Flighty~]

Welcome to the BRS, Chris

 

[mloebl]

Welcome Chris!!!

-Mike

 

[Matt L.]

Chris,

Welcome to the club. I think that was a fantastic summary of eight pages worth of discussion.

Matt

 

[Matt L.]

Wow, I dont understand people arguing over opinion.
All I can think of is someone going
"That song is bad because I dont like the type of music."
And then trying to convince people who like that type of music that the song is bad.

I don't think this quite captures the nature of the argument.

It might appear that people here are arguing over pallette tangs versus powder blue tangs, as in which is the "better" fish. Of course there is no answer -- it is purely a matter of opinion.

What I believe this argument is more akin to is the argument about keeping a pallete tang in, say, a 55gal tank. Sure, some people may be of the opinion that such a practice is perfectly okay, and some people may be of the opinion that such a practice fails to provide the tang with sufficient living space. But that argument isn't purely a matter of opinion. There are husbandry and animal welfare issues involved as well.

The argument here really isn't over which are "better": LFSs or online vendors. That's totally a matter of opinion, as you say.

At least in its original incarnation, this argument was about whether our club sponsors deserve some special consideration beyond price.

All the sponsors read this message board, and I have heard some pretty negative grumblings. I am not the financial officer of the BRS, but my possibly wrong understanding was that LFS sponsors pay a lot of money to support our club. I don't think the club would want to miss their money.

If I didn't care about the health of the BRS, then I wouldn't bother posting here. I am of the opinion that the LFSs are an integral part of the local reekeeping community and are financially tied to this club.

Matt

 

[RichConley]

Remember "Buy American"? A lot of people said it for a long time, and a lot of people did buy American, but overall it didn't work. American industry is in the pooper. Overall, an industry can't stay profitable with goodwill.

When you support an industry with goodwill, it doesnt help anyone. Its like giving the industry a crutch. I think people's continual yells of "buy american" is a good part of the reason why the american product in general is of such poor quality. Companies are like natural organisms; If theres no selective pressures, they wont evolve. As long as theres no impact in the bottom line, they wont change. The best way to get American products to change, is to stop buying them.

Now... if LFS's had a better web presence, then I think that would help them tremendously. Does the LFS have a computer inventory system? Is there some way to get it on the web so people can see what is in stock? Can they post pictures of their livestock on the web? That will go a long way in helping me to get their business. Does such a system costs $$$, yes, but that's the price of getting and keeping customers these days. Does this turn you into an online store? Not really, it's more like the best of both worlds.

I think this ties into the quote above it. The internet has changed the way commerce works. LFSs just want everything to go back to the way it was. Thats not going to happen. I think web inventories, etc, would DRASTICALLY increase LFS business, especially if I could look online, see a pic of "Super Red Fish3000" and pay for it, and just pick it up the next day.

The LFS that refuse to change in the face of internet commerce will die. Supporting them for the sake of supporting them is postponing the inevitable, and even worse, keeping them from realizing that theyre falling further and further behind their competition, and should be adapting.

Some might counter "But you can call and ask what we have in stock and what the price is". Well, I don't ask for directions when I'm lost, and I never, ever, ever call a store to see what the price is, or if it is in stock. Some will add that I'm an idiot, but I'm sorry, if you want my business you have to cater to the idiot consumer.

Exactly. Plus, 80% of the time I call asking if something is in stock, either the employee says theyre not sure, or its too busy to check, or they go check, and theyre wrong anyways. You can't expect the person answering the phone to know the difference between a lineatus wrasse and a rhomboid wrasse.

Half the time they tell you to come in and see, and that defeats the purpose. If I want a specific fish, I'm wasting my time, gas, and its frustrating.

On whim I'd say that pooled orders from online vendors ahould have no impact on the club, other than saving money for club members. I'd also say that pooled orders from LFS's should have no impact on the club, either positive or negative, other than saving money for club members.

I agree. If I'm going to order somethign online, I'm going to order it online, whether its from a pooled order or not. Pooled orders save me shipping, and thats all. That gives me some extra money to throw at other things, a lot of which is spent local.


What seems interesting to me is that theres so much animosity towards liveaquaria,etc from the people who are all about supporting LFSs, but almost none towards reefdom and everythingreef. Yes, theyre sponsors, but theyre still internet companies that are competing by outpricing the LFS.

 

[dz6t]

I am not the financial officer of the BRS, but my possibly wrong understanding was that LFS sponsors pay a lot of money to support our club. I don't think the club would want to miss their money.

Can we have some idea how the sponsorship works? How much money a sponsor need to pay BRS to gain access to the buying pool of BRS members?

 

[dz6t]

. I am of the opinion that the LFSs are an integral part of the local reekeeping community and are financially tied to this club.

This is what exactly should be prevented. If BRS is financially tied to LFS, it will no longer be a non-profit organization and it is against its mission statement.

 

[dz6t]

they wont evolve. As long as theres no impact in the bottom line, they wont change. The best way to get American products to change, is to stop buying them

The same goes to LFS.

if I could look online, see a pic of "Super Red Fish3000" and pay for it, and just pick it up the next day

That is the way local retail stores, such as circuitcity, Bestbuy, Staple etc do to get into the 21th centry business model.

 

[owenz]

Interesting discussion, folks. I will add my two cents.

I will support any vendor that can convince me that they, in some way, contribute to the longterm health of the world's reefs and the reefkeeping hobby - two worlds that I believe are intertwined. I support Liveaquaria, for example, because they are attempting to farm coral on a fairly large scale. And I will support a LFS that is committed to selling locally produced coral frags over strictly wild-caught specimens in some way, shape or form.

If the science and news reports are to be believed, the world's reefs are dying. It is my understanding that supplying the reefkeeping hobby with wild-caught specimens does not help this situation. However, the depredations of the hobby are a drop in the bucket compared to the damage caused by pollution and climate change. And as the world's reefs deteriorate, private reefkeepers will become increasingly important sources of the dwindling biodiversity once found in the wild. Said another way, the species you see in your tank may be extinct in the wild one of these days.

Online vendors who undertake largescale aquafarming get my support. They might have some Walmart-ish tendencies, but they, as much as anyone, will keep the hobby alive if the world's reefs die. Hopefully, they will help keep species alive that would otherwise be lost to the world in doing so. In a sense, I consider the purchases I make contributions to scientific research. Aquafarming requires funding and private retailers will invest in what makes money; if aquafarmed corals make money, retailers will invest in aquafarming.

I will conclude by saying that I am well aware that stores like Liveaquaria buy wild specimens from the same wholesalers who supply the LFS. I am not a rabid idealogue and am happy to purchase wild-caught fish and coral on occasion. Rather, my point is this: Liveaquaria publicizes the fact that they sell aquafarmed coral, and by purchasing that coral, I show them (and their competitors) that doing so can be profitable. I'm looking for the opportunity to show this kind of support with both online vendors and the LFS. Money makes the world go round, so I try to be selective how I spend mine when I can.

 

[dz6t]

I think the above post by Owenz bring out an extremely improtant point of the impact of our reefing community. I believe some coral in our tanks are already extinct in the wild.

 

[smcnally]

This is what exactly should be prevented. If BRS is financially tied to LFS, it will no longer be a non-profit organization and it is against its mission statement.

Getting money from a sponsor does not go against the clubs mission statement, nor does it disqualify it from being a Non-Profit organization. As long as the club does not make a profit (which we don't) then it is non-profit. The money we get from sponsors is not a profit, it is to cover the cost of meetings and supplies.

 

[dz6t]

Getting money from a sponser does not go against the clubs mission statement, nor does it disqualify it from being a Non-Profit organization. As long as the club does not make a profit (which we don't) then it is non-profit. The money we get from sponsers is not a profit, it is to cover the cost of meetings and supplies.

I don't think getting donation from Sponsors is considered "financially tied" to sponsors. So your statement is right.

 

[Matt L.]

Getting money from a sponsor does not go against the clubs mission statement, nor does it disqualify it from being a Non-Profit organization. As long as the club does not make a profit (which we don't) then it is non-profit. The money we get from sponsors is not a profit, it is to cover the cost of meetings and supplies.

This is correct (as far as I understand)

Matt

 

[RichConley]

Can we have some idea how the sponsorship works? How much money a sponsor need to pay BRS to gain access to the buying pool of BRS members?

I no longer remember the exact amount Dong, but heres a basic summary of what sponsorship entails.

The Sponsor pays a reasonable fee(I think its the same as 1 month sponsorship of RC, for a year here). For that fee they get a banner add on this site, and a subforum. They get the exclusive right to run discounted group buys. They get the opportunity (at the BRS discretion) to set up table at meetings, etc.

Generally, the sponsors pay their fee by donating stock to the auction rather than paying $$. This donation is usually tax deductable, as the BRS is a non profit.

So they get some advertising, a forum, and a day every couple of months to sell stuff to a very receptive captive audience, and a tax writeoff. Its a two way road. Yes, its nice that they sponsor us, and it definitely helps, but they do get quite a bit of value back.

 

[ScottM]

Dong,
rich's post could use a little clarification..... nice to see people assuming our level of returned value.......
There are three tiers of sponsorship, each getting more than the other with the highest getting their own forum. While the fee on RC is more (was tiered as well), the BRS is not the RC market.

In the past, we had to pay for tables at the meetings. At some point, the BOD decided not to demand the fee.

Most sponsors do not use the auction to "pay" for their sponsorship. They pay up front with cash payment and their donations to the annual action are just that. Donations.
It really irritates me when people claim that the main reason why sponsors donate is for sponsorship.
That is not true. they donate to support the club.

If a vendor was to donate, and receive a sponsorship in return, the donations are NOT tax deductible
Only those donations without beneficial return are tax deductible.

there is no financial obligation from the BRS to sponsors.its not going to affect thier NP status. interestingly enough, the BRS is actually listed as an educational non-profit org.

 

[RichConley]

In the past, we had to pay for tables at the meetings. At some point, the BOD decided not to demand the fee.

Most sponsors do not use the auction to "pay" for their sponsorship. They pay up front with cash payment and their donations to the annual action are just that. Donations.

Scott, I dont have the data anymore, but when i was helping to organize the auction, I was given the impression that the VAST majority of sponsor payments are made by auction donations. If thats not correct, I am sorry, but I havent seen anything to suggest otherwise.

As far as I know, and this has come up, the BRS has never charged for tables at meetings.


I was not trying to say that the reason the sponsors donate things is purely commercial, but to say it has no effect is innacurate.

 

[ScottM]

As far as I know, and this has come up, the BRS has never charged for tables at meetings..

the active sponsorship agreement for the past year and a half states that a table was $100.00 per meeting. I have never taken a table, so i can't speak if a fee was ever collected but its in the documentation.

 

[Yaktop]

When you support an industry with goodwill, it doesnt help anyone. Its like giving the industry a crutch. I think people's continual yells of "buy american" is a good part of the reason why the american product in general is of such poor quality. Companies are like natural organisms; If theres no selective pressures, they wont evolve. As long as theres no impact in the bottom line, they wont change. The best way to get American products to change, is to stop buying them.

This is a double edge sword and alot more complex of a issue than this for the reason to Buy American. Stop buying american products ultimately creates a weaker economy which lowers wages and the standard of living. people start looking for cheaper products which is usually an import based on the cheaper wages. the imbalance widens. In short, part of the reason people have trouble finding good paying jobs simply is in part because people stop buying the american products. not usually for quality reasons but because they are more expensive. Walmart is a great example of this. cheap stuff, lower quality for alot of it and whats happening - job losses and a reduced quality of life. More people need better understanding of macro and micro economics. So stop buying american products and see what happens, rather look around and see what is happening. Although imported fish and corals are better than domestic