Amino Acids

[One Eye]

According to an article in Coral, amino acids, dissolved amino acids are stored in a pool in the coral tissue or in the cells of the coral digestive track. Zooxanthellae produce glycerol (glycerine, a free amino acid) When zooxanthellae are in a free amino acid rich enviroment the zooxanthellae release more photosynthecly produced glycerol and other energy rich products of photosynthesis. "The better a coral can get a zooxanthella to share it's energy rich, photosynthesized carbon compounds, the better a coral can grow, and generate colored chromoproteins".
Taurine was also found in the coral tissue. Taurine is a by product of the breakdown of amino acids, methione and cysteine. Taurine increases the release of glyerol by the zooxanthelle.

So I would say that amino acids to look for would be, glycerine, methione, cysteine and the amino acid derivative taurine.

The corals use nitrate to help produce thier own natural amino acids. We purposely try to remove as much nitrate as possible. Removing as much nitrite and nitrate as possible we are also removing nitrogen. The article says that nitrogen limitation will cause poor polyp extension, loss of color and slowed growth. They say that an amino acid solution also containing ammonium will correct nitrogen limitation and restore color, extension and growth.
Did that just make me sound smart?

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Aa

Articles and claims do not provide conclusive evidence...do you believe everything your read and hear?

Thanks for giving me permission not to buy amino acids...but I do not need your permission.

Seems like you are doing most of the berating...I was just presenting my point of view.

"Those of us spending research time and money"....you are kidding right? You can't possibly think that you are doing research by adding AA to your tank. LOL....

Chuck, just because you haven't read the reserach, doesn't mean the information doesn't exist. It does, in the form of Borneman articles and others. There are also 'claims' of all sorts that are not scientifically based, which are widely accepted as truth (a few of them are in this thread). If you don't believe them, that's fine. Don't buy it, don't use it and don't promote it... but please... don't berate those of us who feel we are wisely spending our research time and our money in ways that are indeed beneficial to our corals.

bec

 

[Aquaman_68]

holy sheep sh*t batman!!!

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

????

Bec,

You DO have a problem communicating and listening to other opinions ....and you are the one that needs to be cautioned.......this is ridiculous! My post was in no way directed towards defaming or belittling anyone...unlike some of your posts addressed to me in the past and present, Bec. My post stands for itself....does anyone else here see that post as offensive?

Everyone is entitled to his opinion, and mine stands....it is not inaccurate, incorrect , unsubstantiated ,or insulting....it is simply an opinion. I made no claim that of "absolute truths" in my post...again opinion only.

What IS insulting are your responses to my post. You are suggesting that opinions that may be contrary to yours, should not be posted. That is your problem since free speech is guaranteed by the Constitution. If you don't like my opinions, don't read them, don't follow them, but you will not tell me NOT to post them.

What IS unsubstantiated is the "research" that you site in your post....What are the objective test inputs/outputs, test variables, measurement criteria, merit criteria ,etc? Have you formulated a test plan with test methodology, test variables, assumptions, procedures, etc? If the experimentation is not done on a large sample of tanks and variables and if there are no clear scientific repeatable data, then you are not doing research, you are dabbling. Telling people that your claims are absolutely true and that they can not be challenged is irresponsible and apprehensible and should not be tolerated.

I will continue to express my opinions in these threads regardless of your ridiculous allegations. I feel that the people who read these threads are intelligent enough to make their own decisions on how to use the information posted in these threads, uncensored and freely expressed.

Greg -
Really... I don't need you to explain how I should react to these posts. I'm a reasonably capable communicator... and I'm not a reactionary.
I didn't at all receive your post as an attack. You asked a direct question, and I was directly explaining that I don't blindly dump products into my tank, even though I am not an expert at explaning why I think they do or do not work for me. No offense taken nor meant in my response to you.

I do and did take issue with Chuck's following statement:
"So far, I have not seen any research or read any scientific results on the effects of amino acid supplementation on "coral growth. Until definite results are in, nobody can claim that this supplementation does anything other than drain your wallet."

For people who have done layperson's research, and when asked - made claims that we feel the product works... If that statement is not an insult, I don't know what is. It's not accurate, for one... and it's just unecessary in this discussion, as I suggested. Perhaps Chuck should be cautioned about how to participate in these thread.


Someone began this thread with a question about something that some of us are familiar with, and we answered. For those who aren't using it, and have real questions... I take no issue. Negative, unsubstantiated comments are not helpful.

I came into the hobby right around the time Combisan was being unveiled as a complete scam, in the opinions of many people. That whole ordeal is what prepared me for doing my own research before jumping onto the Rowaphos bandwagon, the bare-bottom bandwagon, or many others that come and go with varying results.

As I said... everyone can and should do their own research, and go with what makes the most sense for you.

b

 

[skatezen]

Article 1 on feeding the reef http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-08/eb/index.htm read all 7.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Combisan

Short story:
Inland Reef, formerly located in Nashua NH, and respected as one of the best stores around conducted a scientific analysis of Combisan by sending it to a chemical lab.

The results showed that Combisan is..............water !

I want to hear the combisan story

P.S. everything made by marc weiss is vital to successfully keeping corals.

P.P.S. this is meant as a light hearted post and no sarcasm is directed at anyone other than maybe marc weiss. I really do want to hear the combisan story.

jk

 

[Matt L.]

Enough.

Okay guys, that's enough. I'm sorry, but I don't see why the most immature person here (me) has to make such an exclaimation. Let's save the contention for the political discussions.

Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with stating:
a) I have noticed that when I add amino acids, my corals seem healther, or:
b) I don't believe that there would be any shortage of amino acids in our tank water, which already is so protein-rich, so any addition would be superflous.

In science, we then do an experiment to figure out which is correct: a) or b).

I'm growing a little weary of all these theoretical articles which fail to do any experimentation. What is the amono acid content of great barrier reef water? What is the amino acid content of youre tank water?

You would need to really overdose on the amino acids to hurt your tank. All amino acids are readily biodegraded or bioassimilated into protein.

Matt

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Thanks

Article 1 on feeding the reef http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-08/eb/index.htm read all 7.

Thanks for the link....looks like interesting reading. All of the components cited in the titles: phytoplankton, zooplankton, dissolved organics are beneficial and necessary for coral growth. I agree whole-heartedly that corals need to be fed and that in that feed is contained amino acids and other nutritional compounds. My allegation is that it is not clear weather or not additional AA are required and weather or not they do any good, do harm or otherwise affect coral growth and well being.

 

[reefnroll]

Chuck -

If you have an opionion, give it. I would never try to stop anyone from offering an opinion, whether I agree with it or not. For those in this club who have ever taken the time to have an actual conversation with me... I need not explain my familiarity with the Constitution. There's a difference between offering an opinion and telling someone that their idea of careful husbandry is nothing more than a waste of money. That's a step too far, and that's the kind of negativity I am addressing.

I welcome all sides of every issue, as long as they are presented with respect.
When they aren't you'll hear from me every time.

b

 

[objectfire]

So far, I have not seen any research or read any scientific results on the effects of amino acid supplementation on coral growth. Until definite results are in, nobody can claim that this supplementation does anything other than drain your wallet.

Too true. The supplement makers who formulate products often do so without disclosing their composition or the research that it is based upon, if any. It is doubtful that any studies other than some of trivial scope have been done when compared to the widely varied application of these products by reefkeepers. By pointing this out repeatedly and publicly, perhaps we can begin to hold them accountable to the membership here and on larger venues such as reefcentral.

Thanks for the friendly reminder and sanity check.

Kent

 

[objectfire]

If you have an opionion, give it. I would never try to stop anyone from offering an opinion, whether I agree with it or not. For those in this club who have ever taken the time to have an actual conversation with me... I need not explain my familiarity with the Constitution. There's a difference between offering an opinion and telling someone that their idea of careful husbandry is nothing more than a waste of money. That's a step too far, and that's the kind of negativity I am addressing.

Stating an opposing opinion is not inherently negative. I have to agree with others here that you are taking the comments far too personally and attacking people's motives, rather than their arguments.

In the above rant, you contradict yourself, while coming across mightily defensive, without objectively rationalizing your criticism, i.e. explaining how is offering an opinion different, etc. Also, you are paraphrasing Chuck's comments by assigning a negative intent that simply is not present in his original statements. This is the trouble with written forums, and why professional mediators are paid so well to point out the obvious in dispute resolution.

Your statements above illustrate the intent that you assigned, but which is simply not there in any objective sense. See my other post for an alternative way to perceive the intent that is equally as valid as your own, while being non-confrontational in my response, by assuming "positive" intent without rewriting his words.

Stepping off my soapbox now and departing this thread. Apologies for contributing to taking it off topic and into the realms of meta-discussion, but I thought it might help out.

Kent

 

[jango]

How do you expect the coral to get the amino acids?

How much bacteria is in your water column?

What breaks down amino acids?

 

[wrassefan]

...you can't grow sps and clams successfully under T5 lighting either...

 

[marco67]

OK "the proof is in the puddin"
You two back to your corners and comeout postin tank pics...

 

[One Eye]

Protein I believe breaks down to amino acids. Please correst me if I'm wrong. I've been sick and out of work so I've been doing alot of reading and I'm trying to put this together.
We feed our fish high protein foods. The proteins introduce amino acids to our tanks. If fed properly the fish are going to eat and absorb the vast majority of the protein(organic phosphate and nitrate). The fish absorb the bennificial proteins and leave behind inorganic phosphates. The inorganic phosphates break down to inorganic nitrite, nitrate and ultimately ammonia. BAD
We skim and watch our feeding to keep inorganic phosphate from causing problems in the tank. Skimming will also remove organic phosphates, which our corals need for growth and general health. The corals also need nitrogen for growth and health. When we first start our tanks we all have a cyano bacteria bloom. In starting our tanks we are waiting for the nitrification process to begin, nitrites and nitratres need bacteria to change them over to nitrogen. Cyano bacteria does not need nitrogen to live and therefore grows rapidly until the nitrification process is established.
The atoms of phytoplankton and macroalgea are made up of carbon, nitrogen and phosphate atoms. The ratio in phytoplankton is 106C, 16N and 1P. If the ballance of dissolved organics is not equal to the atom structure then a nutient limitation will occur.
The use of phosban and simular products removing phosphate in combination with heavy, or over skimming could remove to much ORGANIC phosphate and nitrate resulting in nutrient limitation. The use of amino acid supplements would reintroduce organic phosphate and nitrate. Being organic and not consumed by our fish these phosphates and nitrates would be consumed by the zooxanthellae and in effect consumed by the corals in the form of glycerin (a protein, sugar) Also amino acids being in an organic state means they will not polute our tanks.

So, the more we watch our feedings. The more we skim and remove phosphates by other means, the cleaner we keep our tanks, the more we would need to supplement amino acids.

 

[Greg Hiller]

Actually Salifert gives no information about what is in their product other than to say:

amino acids and amino carbohydrates

I understand the amino acids thing, amino carbohydrates though I've never really heard of. Not listed in the back of my Biochem text book. Could stand for a lot of different things I suppose. I kind of was hoping it would be easier to figure out what is in this product. Again, I don't know if the addition of these direct to the water column does any good, it might, but it might not. I for one do not immediately believe that increased polyp extension in and of itself necessarily means a coral is 'happier'. It might, and it might not. I agree of course that the 'red bugs' were certainly causing Acros to retract their polyps, and I always maintained that the 'red bugs' were also causing harm to Acros (some did not feel this way for a Long time, Borneman included). FWIW, when diving I notice that it is actually quite rare to ever find Acropora with their polyps extended during the day. I think the best measure of coral health is growth rate.

Since we can probably assume that the levels of free amino acids in our tanks are quite low, it actually would not be that hard to do some actual scientific studies on this topic. Pocillipora damicornis is usually the coral used for these types of studies. P. damicornis (I have found) is extremely hardy and can do well even in a very low flow environment. One could merely place two similarly sized P. damicornis colonies in two adjacent containers of tank water, illuminated in the same way and dose one container with whatever amino acid you like. 100% water changes of the small containers could be performed once/day, or more or less frequently depending upon growth rate and calcium uptake (you can calculate whether the calcium level would drop below a certain value). Follow growth over time. I considered doing this for some experiments with strontium, but since I cannot know for certain the strontium level in my tank water to begin with I never did the experiment. Randy H-F measured strontium (using ICP) in his tank and found that even though he never dosed it, it remained at significant levels (he does not use a calcium reactor, so the only strontium comes in with water changes).

 

[Greg Hiller]

Part of my reason for wanting to know what is in these supplements is that if they do really work (promote growth), the cheap B@#%#$@ in me would purchase in pure form from a health food store and then prep the supplements myself. My guess is these supplements are probably REALLY dilute. Amino acids are really quite inexpensive, and most (glutamine excepted) are extremely stable in concentrated solutions. Some are particularly soluble in acids, some in bases.

 

[Greg Hiller]

Darren,

Mostly correct I think, but:

>The use of amino acid supplements would reintroduce organic phosphate and nitrate.<

There are no phosphorus atoms in any of the 20 normally occuring amino acids, so no phosphorus is coming in with a supplement that ONLY contains amino acids. Again....amino carbohydrates I don't know about...carbohydrates are oftentimes phosphorylated during extracellular metabolism, but I'd guess they are not in this supplement.

 

[One Eye]

Greg, would ammonium be considered an amino carbohydrate. The series of articles I'm taking this info from are based on research that has been on going from 1995. They suggest that an amino acid solution containing ammonium to be bennificial to the zooxanthellae and thus bennefitting the coral. The coral receiving higher energy levels without having to expell energy to produce it's own amino's.

 

[jango]

the more we would need to supplement amino acids.

They still won't reach the coral

The problem with AA's is that almost all of the essential AA's are synthesized by cnidaria in sufficient quantities to meet metabolic needs. Isoleucine, tyrosine, valine, phenylalanine histidine, lysine, methionine, and leucine are all made by the corals themselves. The rest are synthesized by associated bacteria.
AA's are not "dosable in marine systems", it's either not salt water soluble or stable - or a hundred other things. Nitrogenous compounds will feed bacteria, but dosing a nitrogen is a moot point with the cyano type/sulfur type bacteria associated with marine environments and corals.