Battling heat in the reef.
- Thread starter vinny
- Start date
MarkO
...
I'd say that's a great solution... assuming the thermostat for the furnace is in another room.
MarkO
...
You can pick up a 5k BTU window unit for about $100 that will probably do the job. I personally use a 7k BTU portable for my basement. The portables blow waste air out, so I think they might not be as efficient as they pull warm air into the cracks of the house. I think I paid $300 for mine.
joefitz
Non-member
Well, I still think there is an interesting issue contained in this thread -- most reefers here seem to keep their tanks in the 78-82ish area (myself included). Even the contrarians seem to be in that lower 80s range. The only real discussion of higher temps was in reference to natural environs or swings -- not where people are trying to keep their tanks normally.
But the issue of swings is different from the issue of temperature setting. Are we maximizing growth by keeping temperature so controlled at the expense of our corals ability to tolerate wider swings? Are there documented studies that show regular swings improve a corals ability to tolerate them?
What I'm getting at here is whether a swing of a few degrees over a day could be a better choice (for some at least) than trying to keep temperature so rigidly controlled that it doesn't vary more than half or a single degree?
Are there any scientific studies that relate to these questions?
But the issue of swings is different from the issue of temperature setting. Are we maximizing growth by keeping temperature so controlled at the expense of our corals ability to tolerate wider swings? Are there documented studies that show regular swings improve a corals ability to tolerate them?
What I'm getting at here is whether a swing of a few degrees over a day could be a better choice (for some at least) than trying to keep temperature so rigidly controlled that it doesn't vary more than half or a single degree?
Are there any scientific studies that relate to these questions?
JeremyR
CRA
There was one study done on red sea pocillopora where an RTN causing bacteria was added to the test tanks at various temps.. at 76 and I think 78, there was little to no mortality, and 80 and above there was nearly 100% mortality. That doesn't mean corals die at 80 degrees, it just means that if you subject them to disease at higher temps they are less able to deal with it and the bacteria spreads faster.
I've had alot of fish over the years, and they have always tolerated heat spikes better than the corals. Some of the 10+ year old fish in the store saw the 90's the summer before the store opened and are still with us.
As far as coral collection.. yes, many SPS in the hobby came from fiji. Some from the soloman islands. The vast majority of total corals of all types are from various indonesian islands, including the majority of mariculture corals in the trade for the last few years. I am not sure the exact percentage, but Indo has to be 70% or greater of the total coral trade. Indonesia is a very large island group, and obviously conditions vary.
Personally I like to stay sub 80, but I don't get nervous till the mid to upper 80's. No tank I have maintained has ever had a bleaching episode or stress problem at 83 or 84, but if you are having STN or RTN, the warmer the water, the faster it spreads.. hence the sub 80 preference. When we had corals in the greenhouse, the temp varied from 76 or so on a cool summer night to 86 in the daytime and 74-78 in the winter depending on weather. We didn't really ever have health issues from temperature, it just ended up getting neglected from not being there all the time like the shop,and that's why we eventually broke the system down. In the live rock systems, there were mexican turbos that lived through a couple of summers and the rock tanks regularly got into the 90's. They see that temp in their natural habitats too, the key is that it's seasonal. Mexican turbos have an incredible need for algae and detritus to eat, and most of them die not from temperature but from starvation in tanks that don't have enough food for them. They can't survive on diatoms & regular glass algae.
Anyways, that's our experience. I won't get into an arguement with anyone about it.. just my observations.
I've had alot of fish over the years, and they have always tolerated heat spikes better than the corals. Some of the 10+ year old fish in the store saw the 90's the summer before the store opened and are still with us.
As far as coral collection.. yes, many SPS in the hobby came from fiji. Some from the soloman islands. The vast majority of total corals of all types are from various indonesian islands, including the majority of mariculture corals in the trade for the last few years. I am not sure the exact percentage, but Indo has to be 70% or greater of the total coral trade. Indonesia is a very large island group, and obviously conditions vary.
Personally I like to stay sub 80, but I don't get nervous till the mid to upper 80's. No tank I have maintained has ever had a bleaching episode or stress problem at 83 or 84, but if you are having STN or RTN, the warmer the water, the faster it spreads.. hence the sub 80 preference. When we had corals in the greenhouse, the temp varied from 76 or so on a cool summer night to 86 in the daytime and 74-78 in the winter depending on weather. We didn't really ever have health issues from temperature, it just ended up getting neglected from not being there all the time like the shop,and that's why we eventually broke the system down. In the live rock systems, there were mexican turbos that lived through a couple of summers and the rock tanks regularly got into the 90's. They see that temp in their natural habitats too, the key is that it's seasonal. Mexican turbos have an incredible need for algae and detritus to eat, and most of them die not from temperature but from starvation in tanks that don't have enough food for them. They can't survive on diatoms & regular glass algae.
Anyways, that's our experience. I won't get into an arguement with anyone about it.. just my observations.
Aquaman_68
too many gadgets to fail
DUDE, Mushrooms? They could probably live in temps that are close to 90 constantly. (& if not who cares) That stuff is in the same category as sun polyps, & GSP. Where talking about SPS or corals bleaching out here.......Do mushrooms bleach?Heh, they certainly go back many years. I think I picked those up at Inland Reef in Nashua back in the day. They've made their rounds and I wouldn't doubt you've seen some daughter colonies in some of your displays in RI.
Anyway, back to my argument. My tanks have hit the mid to upper 80's without issue. Absolutely, positively... come see if for yourself, or put your money where your mouth is and bet me. I'll put my reef to the test, and you can provide the beer (which I will win) and we'll discuss it further 'till your hearts (or livers) content... whichever comes first.
MarkO
...
DUDE, Mushrooms? They could probably live in temps that are close to 90 constantly. (& if not who cares) That stuff is in the same category as sun polyps, & GSP. Where talking about SPS or corals bleaching out here.......Do mushrooms bleach?
Hmm, I didn't see anything here in the OP's post that his tank was SPS only.
But I can see where you're coming from. You're one of the folks who puts himself into the SPS Reefer Elitis club. Where anything "soft" is inferior.
Be honest, isn't that why you wanted so badly to see photos of our tanks? If it makes you feel good knocking others tanks, well that's your prerogative. I'm all about enjoying my reef. So what if I've got mushrooms mixed in with rare SPS's I've brought home from around the country. I relish the diversity.
I recommend you get off your high horse and come down and smell the roses... or mushrooms in this case. You just might understand where I'm coming from.
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dz6t
Acro Garden, BRS Sponsor
NateHanson
Non-member
Where talking about SPS or corals bleaching out here.......Do mushrooms bleach?
In his picture, I see mushrooms, zoas, nepthia, montipora, seriatopora, and acropora corals. A pretty typical mixed reef, if you ask me, with plenty of SPS in there.
I can't say I had Mark's same good experiences with heat spikes, but you can't argue that his experiences are irrelevant to this discussion just because his tank also contains mushrooms. Heck, maybe mushrooms are the secret! Maybe they secrete heat shock proteins that can protect the other corals in the tank!
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dz6t
Acro Garden, BRS Sponsor
Maybe they secrete heat shock proteins that can protect the other corals in the tank!
Funny that you said that.
Heat shock proteins (HSP) are a group of proteins whose expression is increased when the cells are exposed to elevated temperatures or other stress. This increase in expression is transcriptionally regulated. This dramatic upregulation of the heat shock proteins induced mostly by Heat Shock Factor (HSF) is a key part of the heat shock response.
The function of heat-shock proteins is similar in virtually all living organisms, from bacteria to humans.
The HSPs are named according to their molecular weights, for example Hsp70 and Hsp90 each define families of chaperones.
NateHanson
Non-member
It was no coincidence.
I studied these for a part of my graduate work at the MIT Dept of Biology.
Aquaman_68
too many gadgets to fail
Since the bash fest has started he we go so people can understand where I'm coming from....Hmm, I didn't see anything here in the OP's post that his tank was SPS only.
But I can see where you're coming from. You're one of the folks who puts himself into the SPS Reefer Elitis club. Where anything "soft" is inferior. Be honest, isn't that why you wanted so badly to see photos of our tanks?
If it makes you feel good knocking others tanks, well that's your prerogative. I'm all about enjoying my reef. So what if I've got mushrooms mixed in with rare SPS's I've brought home from around the country. I relish the diversity.
Mark,
Wasn't knocking your tank & I don't consider myself in the so call "elite sps group" as you state. I have a mixed reef VERY MIXED indeed.Just don't have shrooms as they overtake ones live rock. (as is evident by your pic for people who didn't know!!!) I'm not on a high horse nor do I think I have the best tank!! I'm actually never satisfied with my tank...But that's another story......for another thread as much as this has become!!!! (sorry to the originator)
In his picture, I see mushrooms, zoas, nepthia, montipora, seriatopora, and acropora corals. A pretty typical mixed reef, if you ask me, with plenty of SPS in there.
I can't say I had Mark's same good experiences with heat spikes, but you can't argue that his experiences are irrelevant to this discussion just because his tank also contains mushrooms. Heck, maybe mushrooms are the secret! Maybe they secrete heat shock proteins that can protect the other corals in the tank!
Oh Nate.......Why did I figure to myself the one person who would start counting what he had would be you? Did you notice the corals health in the pics too?
Dong... Do they stn too?
Am I mistaken or were you the one who would preach on not using ro or ro/di water in a reef tank way back? An actually post a thread about it ? If it wasn't you I appologize.
In closing I do want to add..........It's so tough to post on a thread cause so many times your words can be taken as either sarcasm or arrogant or just...... this guy thinks he's a know it all!!!
Jeremy explained it best & actually saved me from wasting my time. (which seems to be the case most times online) When sps are not healthy & begin to either stn or rtn there is a bacteria found around the area of death. (some times a gelatin type of growth which is brown...& no it's not diatoms) This growth will start to form around this base of the dead area. Well when temps are higher Bacteria growth speeds up with the higher temps....This seemed to be the case from my experiences....(yes this may be just by coincidence but after talking to several other reefers I think this is actually the source of the problem.
In the wild you have a vast volume of water to sweep the bacteria away if it does start to take form. An explanation as to why it happens for some reefers & not for others in their closed systems could be the presence of this bacteria.......
In my experiences though I want to add.....montis were not affected, certain sps..seriatopora & even leathers....I don't have nor would I ever have pocillopora in my system so I can't comment on this coral. (I like to be in control where placement of corals are in my system & with cilla you don't have a choice when it decides to spawn!!!!
Thats it I'm done with this thread this time.......I promise!!!!
NateHanson
Non-member
What can I say? I like to count things! I think it's my swedish heritage. Very tidy people - like to organize things - put them in modular closets, etc.
I thought they looked pretty happy, but I could be a little rusty, since it's been a while since I had a tank of my own.
dz6t
Acro Garden, BRS Sponsor
FYI, they do not STN like SPS. Now you get your answer.
BTW, I still use tap water and I have very successful tanks.
Next question?
MarkO
...
Well, I'm quite surprised, but glad to hear you recognize that some of the things you do, say or post may come off as harsh.
I know I do as well and it's not intentional.Anyway, my initial post was to not incite a big debate over temperature. Had I known it would turn to this I never would have posted.
But I got prettymuch hammered for making an honest statement based on my experience, not what I read in a forum or overheard at a meeting. I also think we butt heads b/c I come from an entirely different approach that you. I've always thought "keep it simple". I don't have a lot of gadgets. As a matter of fact, all I have in my 150 reef is a Tunze power stream (that runs off a battery back up UPS. In my sump is a return pump and a protein skimmer. I also run a calcium reactor, but it runs with no probes nor controllers. I don't even have a heater, but I will place a single 300W titanium in my sump in the late winter/spring in case a window or door is broken/opened.
Since I've gone with this "simple" approach, I've had 0 crashes and 0 losses over a 3 year period... maybe I'm just lucky.
So in closing, I'll say do what you believe is right and works for you. I personally try to keep it simple and duplicate nature. Maybe b/c my temp swings by as much as 15 degrees over the course of a year is a good thing. It is more natural than keeping it within a 2 or 3 deg range, and maybe it may be part of the reason I don't experience the STN and RTN you mention. The only problem I've experienced over the years is a breakout of redbugs a few years ago and ironically those came from Jeremy
. (In Jeremy's defence he never knew it and once he did was forthcoming to admit it and help us all. He's one of the LFS I recommend).I too am through with this thread. I appologize to you and anyone I may have upset.
Gina McReeferson
My sweet Baby David
Ok, this is the point where a moderator who is not involved in the thread steps in and writes the following post ...........
A lot of useful information and widely varying viewpoints are being exchanged in here, this thread has the potential for being a learning experience for us all. Let's try to remember all the lessons we've learned in the past in similar heated discussions, try to chill out, relax (chillax if you prefer), and remain civil to one another.
Thanks guys.
...........A lot of useful information and widely varying viewpoints are being exchanged in here, this thread has the potential for being a learning experience for us all. Let's try to remember all the lessons we've learned in the past in similar heated discussions, try to chill out, relax (chillax if you prefer
), and remain civil to one another. Thanks guys.
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