Designing a reef sys that I rarely(if ever) need to change H2O - is it even possible?

[Jeff Letendre]

I've met people (from here) who say they never do water changes and that sounds pretty good to me. I've only been in the 'reef game' for about a year and have killed a lot of great livestock in that short time so I'm looking to the pros here @ BRS for your feedback BEFORE I jump into it. I may be dense, but I'm learning... slowly.

I've got a 125g reef and was thinking of plumbing it through the floor into my basement. I have 5x 15g tanks and 2x 50 gal PlasFab poly sumps that I was planning to 'loop in'. I have 2 Lifeguard quad filter towers (1 has 2x Mech & 2x Chem towers, the other is a 4-way UV tower). I also have a Coralife Calc Reactor rated up to 250gal.

First question is - is it possible to build/tune a system that can clean its own waste water so that I rarely if ever need to change the water? I know this can be accomplished in a freshwater system, but am wondering if it is feasible with salt. I'm aware that I would need to dose trace elements on a weekly or so basis.

Assuming it is possible, would my ideas below work? What should I drop/add/alter?

1) Add a FSB canister to help the nitro cycle (ammonia->nitrites->nitrates)

2) Create DSBs in a couple of the 15gal tanks and throttle back the flow with the tops covered to create an anaerobic environment to consume nitrates

3) Load up the 50g PlasFab poly sump w/ Chaeto and light it w/ a couple 14Watt white LED panels

4) Since my pump hooks up to the end of the poly sump, I'm going to add a Matala pad so no chaeto or other pump-clogging stuff finds its way into the pump and it also acts as a mech/bio media.

5) Add phosban to one of my chem towers, charcoal in the other

6) Possibly add some sort of an algae scrubber if nitrates are still an issue.

Currently I'm using a reef-flo pump, but it is flow-biased and wouldn't cut the head pressure from the basement. I have a 1HP Hayward PowerFlo (model SP1575LXI) pump. The flow should be sufficient on this, but I'm wondering about the power. I may need to find a pump that's cheaper to run.

Anyway, your thoughts, ideas, opinions, criticisms, etc are all welcome.

Happy reefin'...

-jl

 

[Takara]

http://www.seavisions.com/dialyseas_aquarium_dialysis_equi.htm

seriously tho, your going to have to dose chemicals+minerals to the water as they get depleted, iodine, trace elements, etc.

 

[jtmac]

If your going to run the equipment in the basement why dont you just set it up so WC are hassel free? seems like a better option then not doing it and risking killing livestock.

 

[JohnK]

Great thinking, but honestly planning for some regular water changes will probably be cheaper, easier, and work better

You can definately manage waste in a saltwater tank, but other things do become depleted, and many of them are hard or nearly impossible to test for, and mostly blind-science to try to supplement.

Water changes on the other hand are relatively inexpensive and very effective at bringing things back closer to where they should be / normal.

Take iodine for example. Test kits are sketchy and confusing at best, and overdosing can be very toxic. Some livestock needs iodine to survive and grow. Water changes can manage this safely, hobbiest test kits and supplements are not much better than pure guess work.

I've tried a no water changes approach in the past. That experiment (if you could call it that ) convinced me that simple water changes were a lot easier, cheaper, and more effective, than all the effort that went into trying to avoid water changes.

Not trying to be negative, just sharing experience and opinion. IMO a barrel, RODI unit, and some buckets ain't so bad in the big picture

 

[Jeff Letendre]

Thanks for the feedback fellas. I guess I'll stick w/ the currently employed double-barrel approach (one for waste, one for mix). Maybe I'll run 1/2" PEX through the floor so I can limit my mixing, dripping and splashing about to the fish room in the basement.

Thanks again for the 411.

 

[JayM]

if you put the sump in the basement, size it for the intended size of your water changes. Then all water stays at 1 level...basement, where a splash or 2 doesn't hurt much.

Have a bucket for ATO, a smaller bucket for kalk, if you use it, a bucket for mixed water-change water, and a waste bucket, that is only filled when you do a water change.

You can do it without a waste bucket, if you have a 'mark' in your sump for 'X' gallons for your water change.

I do water changes in 40 gallon increments, either 40, 80, or 120 gallons at a time.

 

[Jeff Letendre]

Here's what I did (basement H2O change system)

I plumbed 2 runs of 5/8" PEX from the under cabinet sump through the floor to the basement. 1 line goes straight to the drain of my slop sink, the other to my mixing barrel.

I made a 2x4 stand to hold the mixing barrel about 4' above the floor (next to the slop sink). I put a bulkhead towards the bottom of the mix barrel with an overflow/stand pipe going from the bulkhead to just above where my float valve level is set. This should keep my float valve screw dry and if the float valve fails the excess RODI water would overflow into the sink. Also elevating the barrel means less head height.

I've got a heater and cheap catalina aquatics power head to prepare the solution and a Mag pump to move the H2O from the barrel to the sump.

Once the H2O is at temp and salinity, I'll unplug the circ pump and heater. The Mag pump will be remotely controlled via X-10.

Because I'm draining H2O from the sump, I'll be doing about 25 gals/change. Total system volume is ~150g (125g display + 25g sump) which means I'll be doing 15-20% H2O changes.

My ATO is plumbed from my RODI directly to the acrylic sump and uses a float valve as a safety precaution.

All I need now is some clamps to hold the PEX in place.

Thanks again for the feedback all.

Cheers,

-jl

 

[dcforester1]

Im in the process of moving my sump to my basement. I am gong from a 20gal sump to a 75gal. I am going to try 2 things. I am going to use a peristalic pump, and try a constant water change. I am going to have it tied into my ATO, which is about 1 1/2-2gal/day. If that works I will be changing 45-60gals/month. I have tried this before, and I was having a problem keeping the ratios the same. The problem was the lenth of the hose was not even, so the head pressure was not giving me good results. I was pushing water 35', now I will be down to less than 5', so I am hoping that makes a difference.

The reason I am going to a 75gal sump is, first for more volume. The second is if the constant water change doesnt work. I will just keep one conpartment in the sump at about 25gals. That way I can just drain that, and do a W/C.

I to have a hard time keeping up with them, as I am sure alot of reefers do. The reason I do is well, Im lazy. The other reason is with the DT, and the sump in the living room.It gets old dragging everything in here to do it. I cannot stand it when my wife vacuums while I am watching TV. I cannot imagine what is going thru her mind watching me do a WC.

GoodLuck Derek

 

[Greg Hiller]

I recommend small partial water changes (5-15% per month). While our reef tank systems are much better than they once were they cannot simulate all of the natural processes that go on in the ocean. Some things will accumulate and some things will become depleted. The composition of the water in your tank will drift away from natural seawater over time.

 

[Jocko]

I set mine up so that my overflow goes through a diverter valve. From there it normally goes into a random 15 gallon acrylic tank that I installed a drain in the bottom of. Then from there overflows into another 15 gallon tank with my skimmer in it and from there overflows down to the basement.

When I want to do a water change, I just flip the diverter so the water goes straight into the one with the skimmer. This isolates the first 15 gallon tank without affecting water level in the sump. Then I just drain and mix up the batch in the 15 and when it's ready for prime time, I flip the valve back.

Life is good.

 

[dcforester1]

I like that idea Jocko. Thats what I want one container that I know the volume, and easy to dump.

 

[STiTCH87]

I would run the plumbing into the basement to a water drum with an ATO and an RO/DI and something that can add salt to it for you to essentially have a premix tank with an ATO that is attached to the DT but IDK if that would cause issues with salinity levels because the water in the DT is going to evaporate no matter what you do and if you put premix in there instead of straight RO/DI it will raise salinity. Maybe run a pump down to a premix tank and a drain down to a waste tank. Use a pump to pump water out of the DT to the waste tank and a return pump to pump fresh premix into the DT?

EDIT: Read what Jocko said, that's almost exactly what I was trying to explain myself, lmao.

 

[Jocko]

Great minds think alike.

 

[ljr]

Let me think....

I have the water drain from the display tank into the basement, I then "Tee" it, one side goes to the Skimmer section and one side goes to a 60 gallon barrel. Both the Simmer and the barrel then flow to a tank with some live rock, and is pumped back to the main tank.

The barrel, has a Mag 12 pump that circulates the water, but also can be directed to the sink for draining. When I want to do a water change I close off the side of the Tee going to the barrel, I then switch the Mag-12 to empty the barrel. I then let my RODI unit fill up the barrel and add salt. (I do have a RODI barrel and want to get a bigger barrel to be able to plumb it in to use as a fill) I let the barrel come up to temp and test... then I turn the Tee back on... Water change done.

Total of my time for a 50 gallon water change, about 5 minutes. Though I still need to wait the 12 hours or so for the RODI to work.

 

[STiTCH87]

Let me think....

I have the water drain from the display tank into the basement, I then "Tee" it, one side goes to the Skimmer section and one side goes to a 60 gallon barrel. Both the Simmer and the barrel then flow to a tank with some live rock, and is pumped back to the main tank.

The barrel, has a Mag 12 pump that circulates the water, but also can be directed to the sink for draining. When I want to do a water change I close off the side of the Tee going to the barrel, I then switch the Mag-12 to empty the barrel. I then let my RODI unit fill up the barrel and add salt. (I do have a RODI barrel and want to get a bigger barrel to be able to plumb it in to use as a fill) I let the barrel come up to temp and test... then I turn the Tee back on... Water change done.

Total of my time for a 50 gallon water change, about 5 minutes. Though I still need to wait the 12 hours or so for the RODI to work.

Yep, exactly. Should work perfectly. Would love to see a build thread.

 

[dcforester1]

Let me think....

I have the water drain from the display tank into the basement, I then "Tee" it, one side goes to the Skimmer section and one side goes to a 60 gallon barrel. Both the Simmer and the barrel then flow to a tank with some live rock, and is pumped back to the main tank.

The barrel, has a Mag 12 pump that circulates the water, but also can be directed to the sink for draining. When I want to do a water change I close off the side of the Tee going to the barrel, I then switch the Mag-12 to empty the barrel. I then let my RODI unit fill up the barrel and add salt. (I do have a RODI barrel and want to get a bigger barrel to be able to plumb it in to use as a fill) I let the barrel come up to temp and test... then I turn the Tee back on... Water change done.

Total of my time for a 50 gallon water change, about 5 minutes. Though I still need to wait the 12 hours or so for the RODI to work.

If looking for a barrel, Rob "Smartfish" usually has them. They hold 60gal, food grade with markings to see how much H2O in them. He charges $20-$25.

 

[delta]

Check out the TOTM's see what they did. Bec had a nice easy system for changing water you can see picture in her TOTM. Paul/RK2 had an insane way of changing water but it will cost you ::
http://www.bostonreefers.org/totm/

 

[ljr]

If looking for a barrel, Rob "Smartfish" usually has them. They hold 60gal, food grade with markings to see how much H2O in them. He charges $20-$25.

That is where I got the one I have! Just need to figure out time to get another (when he has one!)

 

[Joel A]

Check out the TOTM's see what they did. Bec had a nice easy system for changing water you can see picture in her TOTM. Paul/RK2 had an insane way of changing water but it will cost you ::
http://www.bostonreefers.org/totm/

i saw Paul's dialyseas unit before, but i never looked into them cost wise... WOW :: . I guess after you get over the initial sticker shock though, and realize that it replaces like 5 different pieces of equipment that you're already using, the price doesn't seem quite as bad... i mean it would replace your RO unit, System controller, level top off controller, dosing pumps, etc. and probably do a better job too...

 

[paulthomas]

i saw Paul's dialyseas unit before, but i never looked into them cost wise... WOW :: . I guess after you get over the initial sticker shock though, and realize that it replaces like 5 different pieces of equipment that you're already using, the price doesn't seem quite as bad... i mean it would replace your RO unit, System controller, level top off controller, dosing pumps, etc. and probably do a better job too...

Good point. But if the Dialyseas ever doo doos the bed, you're in a world of hurt if you don't have equipment on hand as back-up. I imagine the Dialyseas is very dependable, though.