Vodka Dosing vs Refugium/GFO Method

[me2003]

everyone that does it is stupid

I never called anyone that and never would.

the worst that can happen is the "slime mats", correct?

No It is not the worse that could happen. There have been reports of
corals turning brown and losing there colors. I have actually seen this
in tanks dosing also. Soft corals can be negatively affected also. I have seen
black spot infections on the tips of soft corals develop while dosing.
There is some science to back up the link between increased nutrients
and disease in corals. For example
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4539-sewage-nutrients-fuel-coral-disease.html

The bags increased the nutrient concentration to between two and 10 times background levels, equivalent to a mildly polluted reef. Exposed to extra nutrients, about twice as much of the sea fan colony became infected with aspergillosis compared with colonies that received the graft but no extra nutrients.

I will agree somewhat with this quote from the Vodka dosing article. Not sure on whether the dosing does anything
for systems wih high levels of NO3 and PO4 either
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

Stable systems that do not contain high levels of NO3 and PO4 may not benefit to any great extent by employing carbon source dosing.

If you are fragging corals, the possible increase in disease caused by dosing
should be considered.

 

[me2003]

GFO, OZONE, Amino Acid additions and vodka dosing can all be part of this
questionable methodology. This makes understanding if there is some benefit
what would be causing it.

pictures of your tank and compare them to Don's please?

There have been many successful tanks that did not use any of these techniques.
In many cases with the systems today it is fairly easy to have a good looking coral tank.
Where are these pictures of Dons tank? I have acros, montipora, soft corals ... that are all doing very well without dosing. My current tank is only about a year old. It takes several years to get all the corals and to the growth stage I prefer for a tank. I have had many successful tanks over the years without dosing.

 

[Greg Hiller]

>Greg, did u experience any permanent bad effects? How long did it take for the "slime" to disappear after you stopped treatment?<

No, no permanent bad effects, but no particular benefits that I could see even while I was dosing. I don't remember any less algae growth on the glass for instance. A few LPS expanded a little bit more at first, but this might just have been a feeding response to the higher nutrient levels that they sensed. I didn't track PO4 really closely. I dosed for several months as I recall. Very slowly ramped up and then down again. I siphoned most of the 'slime mats' out, and they did not come back after I stopped dosing.

>So why try to raise bacterial activity by dosing vodka to only kill the bacteria with ozone.<

It's probably already been said, but I don't think the levels of ozone dosing that we generally use in a reef tank is likely to kill any significant percentage of the suspended bacteria in the water of a reef system.

>I believe that you are not trying to kill the bacteria but rather running a very low level of ozone to "oxygenate" the water.<

I also don't believe you are doing this either. Ozone will oxidize various compounds that it comes into contact with (mostly in the contact chamber), but I don't think that a tank running ozone will necessarily have a higher dissolved oxygen content.

 

[Shenlung]

Like I said, what works for one does not work for another and vice versa. I've been told repeatedly that Xenias spread like weeds and my tank won't support them at all. I've gone through 12 frags of the stuff and only just now got one to take and it doesn't look happy....but my zoas and palys look great even after fragging, and the 2 sps frags I got from the auction that no one wanted to touch because they looked dead are doing amazing.


What works in one tank does not work in another, and that is the ONLY truth I've found in this hobby so far. There are people who use tap water to fill their tank and others who refuse to use anything but RO/DI and others who use NSW, and they are all doing fine. I had trouble when I started because I was using tap water, now I use RO/DI and it works. Does that mean that RO/DI is what everyone should use? Absolutely not, use what works for you, and take all advice you get with a healthy grain of salt, as something that made person A's tank explode with color and perfection might just kill off everything in Person B's tank and do absolutely nothing for person C's tank.

That's the nice thing about this.... you have the right to make the choices on what you use, and people are constantly trying things that haven't been done before. Vodka dosing is something that people are trying out, tomorrow it might be grape juice or lawn clippings....who knows?

The fact of the matter is that no amount of griping or whining about someones opinion is going to make one iota of difference in their own experiences.

and never forget : Never argue with an idiot, bystanders may not be able to tell the difference.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Sounds promising. I too want to eliminate the GFO and the refugium if possible and appreciate you takingthe time to discuss your experience with the vodka dosing method.

I guess my predicament is that my tank is doing great right now (FINALLY). The dinos are almost gone after installing and running a large kalk stirrer / reactor. The cyano that once covered the sand is gone thanks to my little friend the Diamond Goby who is the best utility fish I EVER bought! The hair and other algaes are minimal if not gone thanks to the GFO and the refugium that have managed to reduce my phosphates to near undetectable. The colors of my acros (mostly acros in my tank, some acans and no softies) are really incredible.

So the question is now that I am happy with the tank, do I want to go and try something else to decrease cost of maintaining the tank? If in deed there is little to no risk with vodka dosing then why not? But if there is a potential to have a massive bad event then I would rather pay the cost of the maintenance. So this is why I am really on the fence and this is why I started this thread - to ask for advice and to see how the vodka dosing has worked out for others. The more inputs the better - safety in large numbers - or more precisely there is more confidence in large samples.

One question - how much ozone do you use?

I am a user of both Vodka and Ozone, and until recently GFO.

I have been using Vodka for a couple of months. It has lessened the amount of nuisance algae, and removed all red slime algae in the few places I had it. This red slime would build up right in my Vortechs high flow area. No idea why it gre in high flow areas, but it is now gone. I have been happy with the color it gives my corals. I am also able to feed my fish a lot more. I used to feed every other day, and I now feed twice a day. They seem more active and my clowns even started laying eggs again.

Ozone has always made my water crystal clear. I use an Ultralife ozone generator that does not require dry air. I feed the ozone into my skimmer and have great results.

I just recently turned off my GFO reactor as I heard from Randy that a skimmer will produce more skimmate w/o GFO use. I still have a large refugium, with macro slowly growing in it for the time being.

It took me a while to finally take the plunge into vodka, but I would now recommend it. It is pretty simple if you follow the dosing article and I have had no issues even with a very DSB.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Hi Joel. What exactly is the "Elos" method. I have seen it mentioned and I know people who use it but what actually are you adding to your tank with the Elos system, bacteria cultures, carbon, AAs, ????

If this or any other system is safer (like Zeovit which I guess is the same as Elos but more expensive) then I am all for it.

Is Elos or Zeovit cost effective for a large tank?

Do these systems require lots of daily attention?

I am open to anything that will allow discontinued use of GFO and a 24 hour lit refugium as long as it is cheaper than the GFO/fuge and relatively safe.

Chuck- I've thought about it a lot for my system, but i'm going to go with elos instead. One of the elos supplements is supposed to be an equivalent to dosing vodka...

 

[Gardiner]

My ozone input is regulated by my AC3. I have it set to keep my ORP between 345-365. My Ultralife Ozone reactor is capable of 365mg an hour, it is on about 4 hours a day in a 250 gallon system.

If you follow the slow dosing as prescribed in the RC Vodka dosing article I do not think anything drastic can happen.

Sounds promising. I too want to eliminate the GFO and the refugium if possible and appreciate you takingthe time to discuss your experience with the vodka dosing method.

I guess my predicament is that my tank is doing great right now (FINALLY). The dinos are almost gone after installing and running a large kalk stirrer / reactor. The cyano that once covered the sand is gone thanks to my little friend the Diamond Goby who is the best utility fish I EVER bought! The hair and other algaes are minimal if not gone thanks to the GFO and the refugium that have managed to reduce my phosphates to near undetectable. The colors of my acros (mostly acros in my tank, some acans and no softies) are really incredible.

So the question is now that I am happy with the tank, do I want to go and try something else to decrease cost of maintaining the tank? If in deed there is little to no risk with vodka dosing then why not? But if there is a potential to have a massive bad event then I would rather pay the cost of the maintenance. So this is why I am really on the fence and this is why I started this thread - to ask for advice and to see how the vodka dosing has worked out for others. The more inputs the better - safety in large numbers - or more precisely there is more confidence in large samples.

One question - how much ozone do you use?

 

[Joel A]

Hi Joel. What exactly is the "Elos" method. I have seen it mentioned and I know people who use it but what actually are you adding to your tank with the Elos system, bacteria cultures, carbon, AAs, ????

If this or any other system is safer (like Zeovit which I guess is the same as Elos but more expensive) then I am all for it.

Is Elos or Zeovit cost effective for a large tank?

Do these systems require lots of daily attention?

I am open to anything that will allow discontinued use of GFO and a 24 hour lit refugium as long as it is cheaper than the GFO/fuge and relatively safe.

oops! Don't know why i said elos, i meant Zeo.. (zeovit). Can be costly for a larger tank IIRC, but not to to bad. Initial start up costs might be a little high, but you don't use very much of the supplements in daily dosing, even in a large tank.

The zeovit doesn't seem to be as drastic as the vodka/sugar dosing method... the zeovit system combine a number of things, other than that one carbon dosing method, and seem to get great results with it. Another benefit of zeovit is that if you forget to dose, or can't dose for a few days, it's not a big deal.. where as not dosing for a few days when using vodka can be a serious issue.

 

[wrassefan]

Chuck, I say try the vodka....1 shot for you 1 shot for the tank...lol::

Just kidding...I've read a few of the vodka dosing threads on RC. I know Marc from the Dallas Fort Worth club (also signs on here once in a while) has been dosing the vodka since last summer of 2008. Sounds like it has worked very well for him on his huge system. Maybe he will chime in on his personal experience. Maybe you can pm him and he will chime in. I'm very encouraged and was thinking of starting the vodka this weekend...then maybe during the week give some to the tank too!! Andy

 

[Shenlung]

that's the way I'd dose vodka...but I would take the tanks half

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

He he... one shot for you, one shot for the tank, and two shots for me.
Yes melev swears by the vodka...uh for the tank I mean...not sure if he partakes for himself.

Sound more and more like I may start dosing but keep the GFO and the fuge and slowly phase them out as my PO4 decreases to zero.

Pass the Grey Goose, I need a martini! Cheers..

Chuck, I say try the vodka....1 shot for you 1 shot for the tank...lol::

Just kidding...I've read a few of the vodka dosing threads on RC. I know Marc from the Dallas Fort Worth club (also signs on here once in a while) has been dosing the vodka since last summer of 2008. Sounds like it has worked very well for him on his huge system. Maybe he will chime in on his personal experience. Maybe you can pm him and he will chime in. I'm very encouraged and was thinking of starting the vodka this weekend...then maybe during the week give some to the tank too!! Andy

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Yes that could be a problem...so I'll have to buy the cheapest rotgut that I can find. Maybe that will dissuade me from drinking all the profits...uh I mean ethanol...

that's the way I'd dose vodka...but I would take the tanks half

 

[JPags]

Chuck

One thing I wanted to mention.

I was dosing vodka and not using GFO. I was able to get my nitrates to 0 and continued to dose vodka. The one thing I noticed was that my corals still looked brownish which I think was originally from the high nutrients in my tank.

I started using GFO about 2 months ago and the brown in my corals is going away, so I am not sure if vodka alone will be enough to keep everything looking great.

Let me know if you remove the GFO and how things look after a while.

John

 

[ReeferMedic]

Chuck

One thing I wanted to mention.

I was dosing vodka and not using GFO. I was able to get my nitrates to 0 and continued to dose vodka. The one thing I noticed was that my corals still looked brownish which I think was originally from the high nutrients in my tank.

I started using GFO about 2 months ago and the brown in my corals is going away, so I am not sure if vodka alone will be enough to keep everything looking great.

Let me know if you remove the GFO and how things look after a while.

John

You're corals were most likely turning brown because of phosphate, which is far more important to keep in check than nitrate is imo. GFO specifically targets phosphate iirc.

 

[JPags]

Thats what I figured.

The GFO is also doing a nice job at helping keep my algea down around the tank.

I just wanted to make sure chuck knew that Vodka dosing may not eliminate Phosphates totally from the system even though it did a great job on my Nitrates.

John

 

[stingman]

The bright pastel colors you see in some peoples tanks are usually lack of zooxanthellae due to extremely low nutrient levels, if any at all, which can be accomplished with the help of vodka/sugar dosing. My skimmer was definitely accumulating more skimmate when I was dosing. There are MANY questions and a whole lot of REAL answers.

Not true in the least lack of zooxanthellae doesnt cause bright colors...... It causes bleaching the colors are the zoo. Also they do not need high nutrient levels infact they thrive without nutrients. No offense but when you give REAL answers you may want to use real facts to back them up 6 years in marine biology classes back up my statement about coloration being the symbiotic algea. when they loose there zoo. They bleach plain and simple. Vodka dosing is a aproach and if not done perfectly is risky Period. If you look and seriously look you will find that everyone who has dosed in majority no longer do and for a reason its not efective in the long run and macro refugia is a better solution. What happens when salinity reaches 1.030 with a calcium concentration of 500 and u add 1ppm of alcohol? SNOW I could go on for days... I use macro refugia and high volume skimmers my corals and almost all of them grow at a rate of at least an inch a month if not more and I have gone months without a water change or addition of elements of anykind without any form of parameter fluctuation. I have an extreme over population of fish high waste and o nitrates, 0 nitrites, 0 phosphates alk of 12 calcium of 449ppm, magnesium is pretty high. I could go all day but I have to go get some lunch

 

[JohnK]

Not true in the least lack of zooxanthellae doesnt cause bright colors...... It causes bleaching the colors are the zoo. Also they do not need high nutrient levels infact they thrive without nutrients. No offense but when you give REAL answers you may want to use real facts to back them up 6 years in marine biology classes back up my statement about coloration being the symbiotic algea. when they loose there zoo. They bleach plain and simple.

While your correct about corals bleaching when they lose (all) their zoanthalle, your completely missing the point Don (Reefermedic) was making.

 

[Liam]

The bright pastel colors you see in some peoples tanks are usually lack of zooxanthellae due to extremely low nutrient levels, if any at all, which can be accomplished with the help of vodka/sugar dosing. My skimmer was definitely accumulating more skimmate when I was dosing. There are MANY questions and a whole lot of REAL answers.

Not true in the least lack of zooxanthellae doesnt cause bright colors...... It causes bleaching the colors are the zoo. Also they do not need high nutrient levels infact they thrive without nutrients. No offense but when you give REAL answers you may want to use real facts to back them up 6 years in marine biology classes back up my statement about coloration being the symbiotic algea. when they loose there zoo. They bleach plain and simple. Vodka dosing is a aproach and if not done perfectly is risky Period. If you look and seriously look you will find that everyone who has dosed in majority no longer do and for a reason its not efective in the long run and macro refugia is a better solution. What happens when salinity reaches 1.030 with a calcium concentration of 500 and u add 1ppm of alcohol? SNOW I could go on for days... I use macro refugia and high volume skimmers my corals and almost all of them grow at a rate of at least an inch a month if not more and I have gone months without a water change or addition of elements of anykind without any form of parameter fluctuation. I have an extreme over population of fish high waste and o nitrates, 0 nitrites, 0 phosphates alk of 12 calcium of 449ppm, magnesium is pretty high. I could go all day but I have to go get some lunch

Actually to the best of my knowledge it's carotenoids that are the pigment producers in corals not zooxanthellae (unless you are talking about the color brown of course)
The carotenoids are produced to protect the coral against uv radiation.

So before you get on your high horse maybe you should do some revision before you give real answers to real questions

 

[JohnK]

Liam, your articulate, well read, and have a better memory than I.

Would you say the following is correct?
-carotenoids make the bright colors
-zoanthalle generally is brown
-Elevated nutrient levels are often associated with increased brown coloration due to increased zoanthalle.
-lowered nutrient levels are often assoicated with brighter colors because the color from carotenoids are less drowned out by elevated zoanthalle levels/brown.

 

[Liam]

Liam, your articulate, well read, and have a better memory than I.

Would you say the following is correct?
-carotenoids make the bright colors
-zoanthalle generally is brown
-Elevated nutrient levels are often associated with increased brown coloration due to increased zoanthalle.
-lowered nutrient levels are often assoicated with brighter colors because the color from carotenoids are less drowned out by elevated zoanthalle levels/brown.

sounds like a pretty good summary as far as i am aware, i believe certain proteins are responsible for some colors also.