Help with Coral Issues

[dz6t]

I have or had all sorts of al-cheapo LED ever hit the market in the past two years.
They all grow coral just fine.
The ones with 90 degree lens can burn coral that near them.
What I did was removed all lens and after that, they all worked great.

I did use PAR meter and I never see par number jumping up and down.
In fact, they grow coral as good as those more expensive LED.
The blue and white LED grow coral as well as those so called full spectrum.

 

[Marshall O]

I have or had all sorts of al-cheapo LED ever hit the market in the past two years.
They all grow coral just fine.
...
In fact, they grow coral as good as those more expensive LED.
The blue and white LED grow coral as well as those so called full spectrum.

That has been my experience, and what I have seen from others as well. But again, I have not been using them long enough to make any definite statements. I'm hoping in a year or two I can

 

[dz6t]

What I do is to measure coral growth by weight gain.
Corals growing under al-cheapo LED were all sort of SPS, zoas and some favia, acan.
Now it is winter time and I put all halides back. LED will be back on when summer hits.

 

[this is me]

Sorry Nick, but I don't have time to scour around and give you links to articles...you can find a ton of info on this subject for yourself by doing a good search and read.

Trust me, I have scour the internet for this info but I couldn't find anything stating the temperature range you're suggesting.
For the amount of time you spend on this forum, I think you have the time to post a couple references to your statement.

Just my $.2 ... based on 24+ years in this hobby and business.

With 24+ years of experience, it should be quite easy to post references on your statement.

 

[jselzler1]

I've heard saltwaterB state water temperature's on a few other threads being in mid-70's based on his diving experience, and always disagree with it. In my 300 dives in the pacific ocean equatorial region (Micronesia and Marshall Islands), I've never measured a water temp below 80 F for what that is worth.

Hear is some info I scoured from the net in just about 30 seconds (Google is just awesome). Fiji water temp range on reef spans from 75 - 86 F over the 15 years of measurement. The seasonal averages are from 78 - 84.5 F.

http://www.naia.com.fj/fiji.php?climate-water-temperature-2


http://www.dive-the-world.com/diving-sites-fiji.php site has a similar range
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0411/feature3/ site has a similar range


It is awfully hard to find a site that supports saltwaterB's experience, but very quick to find sites that don't support.

edit to add dive locations being relevant

 

[delta]

Trust me, I have scour the internet for this info but I couldn't find anything stating the temperature range you're suggesting.
For the amount of time you spend on this forum, I think you have the time to post a couple references to your statement.



With 24+ years of experience, it should be quite easy to post references on your statement.

Lower temps are not a problem. Though it has been a very long time since I have seen a discussion on it I am thinking 07-08 at the earliest. But I have run my tanks low for years and it is not a problem.

Your biggest issue with temp is large spikes and drops. Especially if those spikes deplete the O2 saturation on the high end.

You can't straight compare water parameters to natural all the time. As many reefers keep salinity at 1.026/35ppt when much of the ocean is far below that. As well calcium level are ofter below 400 and Alk around 7dkh in NSW

 

[Marshall O]

Lower temps are not a problem. Though it has been a very long time since I have seen a discussion on it I am thinking 07-08 at the earliest. But I have run my tanks low for years and it is not a problem.

Your biggest issue with temp is large spikes and drops. Especially if those spikes deplete the O2 saturation on the high end.

You can't straight compare water parameters to natural all the time. As many reefers keep salinity at 1.026/35ppt when much of the ocean is far below that. As well calcium level are ofter below 400 and Alk around 7dkh in NSW

Thanks Greg. My temp fluctuates by 0.5°F or less.

And once again, thank you for everyone who is responding. This is bringing out some good conversation and hopefully even some experienced members are learning something

 

[this is me]

Lower temps are not a problem. Though it has been a very long time since I have seen a discussion on it I am thinking 07-08 at the earliest. But I have run my tanks low for years and it is not a problem.

Your biggest issue with temp is large spikes and drops. Especially if those spikes deplete the O2 saturation on the high end.

You can't straight compare water parameters to natural all the time. As many reefers keep salinity at 1.026/35ppt when much of the ocean is far below that. As well calcium level are ofter below 400 and Alk around 7dkh in NSW

Greg,
I'm not saying temperature is the main problem here. But could be contributing to the problem. Leave no stone unturned when you have this kind of complex problem to solve.

 

[this is me]

Thanks Greg. My temp fluctuates by 0.5°F or less.

What controller are you using and what kind of long term record keeping you're using.

On my Profilux or any other controller, there's an hysteresis or operating window. Meaning, it's the stable condition where the controller does not have to turn anything on to compensate for the rising or lower of the parameter. Without this operating window or too small of a window, it would oscillate between heating and cooling.
Even with the smallest hysteresis allowed on the controller, I still see a swing of 0.70degree. Depending on the volume of water you have, this would be even more. Because let say you set it at 77.0 degrees with a hysteresis of 0.2degree. The controller will not doing anything when the temp is between 76.9-77.1. When the temp drop to 76.8, it request a turn on by the heater. By the time the heater get hot enough to bring the temperature up, the temp would drop below that 76.8 depending on the volume of water. Same for when the temp getting hotter.
So when you say 75.5 in your tank, the temperature can very well drop to below 75. Adding the tolerance of your probe, it might drop to 74. This is too low for my comfort.

Here's my temp record for the past month. Ignore the strange dip because of waterchange.

 

[cilyjr]

I agree completely. Too often it's rarely just one thing. It was a combination when I had problems.

 

[delta]

Greg,
I'm not saying temperature is the main problem here. But could be contributing to the problem. Leave no stone unturned when you have this kind of complex problem to solve.

But I do not think this issue is all that complex. His clams got pinched mantel and croaked set off a chain reaction. And contrary to what has been stated in this thread SPS RTN/ STN can and does wipe out whole tanks. And from the posts it seem little to nothing was done to rectify the situation. i.e water changes, carbon, fragging, removing dead tissue. In a tank that has a high volume of livestock this could be devastating. Whenever anything dies livestock wise you need to act fast with a heavily stocked tank.

 

[Marshall O]

What controller are you using and what kind of long term record keeping you're using. [/IMG]

Reef Angel. I record every 15 minutes. On any given day, my low is 75.5, and high is 76.1. I have never seen any unusual dips.

But I do not think this issue is all that complex. His clams got pinched mantel and croaked set off a chain reaction. And contrary to what has been stated in this thread SPS RTN/ STN can and does wipe out whole tanks. And from the posts it seem little to nothing was done to rectify the situation. i.e water changes, carbon, fragging, removing dead tissue. In a tank that has a high volume of livestock this could be devastating. Whenever anything dies livestock wise you need to act fast with a heavily stocked tank.

Greg, can you speak more about SPS RTN/STN wiping out a tank?

 

[PSU4ME]

Some people think (and maybe they know) but STN/RTN could be linked to a bacteria that causes it to happen. So in a closed system, it can spread if not dealt with.

If I ever have STN/RTN and I'm trying to clip off the bad and save the rest, I always dip it to kill the bacteria. I've had luck in saving colonies and not having it spread. Not sure of all the science but that's how i've dealt with my episodes.

If I were you, i'd be changing the most water you can a day (or every two) that you feel comfortable with where it won't upset your fish

 

[freakit]

Some people think (and maybe they know) but STN/RTN could be linked to a bacteria that causes it to happen. So in a closed system, it can spread if not dealt with.

If I ever have STN/RTN and I'm trying to clip off the bad and save the rest, I always dip it to kill the bacteria. I've had luck in saving colonies and not having it spread. Not sure of all the science but that's how i've dealt with my episodes.

If I were you, i'd be changing the most water you can a day (or every two) that you feel comfortable with where it won't upset your fish

That's what I believe the problem is, upsetting the fish. That's what is holding the OP from fixing this thing IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dz6t]

I may be able to give the temperature debate some information:
Due to biological reaction and how coral harvest light, coral temperature is higher than its surround water.
In the ocean, the massive water movement is able to carry heat away from coral that allows coral to tolerate higher water temperature.
That is why coral is doing fine in shallow water with temperature as high as 84F to 85F.
But many of us already know that when our tank hit such high temperature, coral is not doing well.
That is because we can not duplicate the massive water movement in the ocean.
There are many aquaculture facilities keep water at around 75 to 76F with great success. Scott from Unique Coral in CA is an example.

 

[saltwaterB]

Nick,,,you have seen the best possible reference in the last 10 years with your own eyes....
Aquarium Gallery
Skiptons
Unique Aquaria

all were kept at 75*
and as Dong mentioned...many facilities have been doing this for a long time....


On my many dives in Fiji and Panama, when I am 20'-40' down, swimming around all the stuff that is in out tanks, my dive computer read 73*--76*. Now as I was wading out to the reef in the shallows it read 78*-80*...but only a few Acropora and Crown leathers really populated that area.


oh...and with a quick search...here is a reference for you.... http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/d_warren_011898.html


again, proof is in the pudding....look at our tanks

My only argument is that he could rule out the temperature as a major stressor or problem...as you seem to be certain it is ???


And Marshall my comment was not directed at you pre say...it was more a comment on the state of cheaper LEDs (or all LED's in my opinion) Some of them are WAY better than others...for instance the marineland, fluval, and Ecoexotic...are pretty much garbage...and cause more problems then good....some of the other "strips" I have seen work great for 6 months to a year...then degrade very quickly...Plus the bigger problem is actual spectral output...not just par and lumens. Energy will grow any Coral for a short amount of time (6 months to about 2 years) but when you start leaving out other key components needed for photosynthesis and calcification then you start to run in to problems. Hence a big reason most people "switch out", "upgrade" or what I call "bail" on LEDs every few months to about the 2 year mark(depending on the LED). It is very hard to find a lot of people successfully running the same LED unit for more than 3 years. This is something you can clearly see if you follow a ton of build threads and light threads on any of the dozen national forums.
I get a kick out of people that say they "do a test" and it is only for a few months. Or say they have "long term" experience with something, come to find out it is not even for a year....lol peoples relevance for measurement is very skewed for convenience sometimes...

 

[this is me]

Nick,,,you have seen the best possible reference in the last 10 years with your own eyes....
Aquarium Gallery
Skiptons
Unique Aquaria

Brendon,
I think I know your history very well. Started Perfect Pet tank maintenance in 1996, worked at Tropic Isle, Skipton, Aqua Addict, Aquarium Gallery, started your own for few months, went back to Skipton, then went on your own again to present day a little over a year ago.
Yes, I've seen it with my own eyes. And they're not the "The best possible reference", far from it. As you have admitted yourself, you're not a SPS guy.
Anyone with half of a brain would know the LFS tanks are not a reference because of the turnover rate of livestock.

oh...and with a quick search...here is a reference for you.... http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/d_warren_011898.html

...

Did you read the link that you posted?? Or did you just did a quick google search and glanced through it and said it's enough.

From the article.
"Along the Great Barrier Reef, the average minimum water temperature is well with the limits recognised for coral growth. Coral flourish best in a temperature range of 25 o C to 29 o C, but they can withstand limited exposures to lows of 16-17 o C"

If you don't know your metric system, 25C=77F.

Also, in the Q and A section of your link posted.

"Q: What would an ideal temprature be for a reef aquarium ? Thats if there is such a thing.

Well, there really is no such thing, it just depends on so many factors. If you are trying to model a particular section of a reef, from a particular location, then it would be advantages to determine the conditions found there. And many corals seem to have a temperature that they do better at, which can be shown by the differing dominating corals found as you move further north on the GBR. (note this can also be due to other effects, so it can be hard to determine which on it is). I am personally happy with a reef in the region of 26.0 o C to 30.0 o C (note, i don't actually know what these numbers are in oF, but I have a conversion table on my site at ozreef.home.ml.org/reference/temperature.html) At a guess, those numbers are in the region of 77 o F to 80 o F, or there abouts. But as you get higher in temperature, the metabolism of the organisms increases, so you have increased growth rate etc. "

again, proof is in the pudding....look at our tanks

Don't be arrogant. I've not seen you kept SPS alive and healthy for long term. I've not seen you sit still in one place for long term. Your 24+ years in "business" is actually 18years(1996). But just do the math of all those places and the 18 years and you see why long term for you is hard for me to grasp.

 

[saltwaterB]

Nick,

by your arrogant and ignorant response...I can see you have some other agenda and would like to blatantly lie...

and you should really get your facts straight...cause you don't know hardly anything that you think you know.....lol

you summary of my history is so far off it is hilarious...

and again you lie by saying that you have not seen Corals I have for long term....hahahaha....you obviously don't open your eyes much.....there are Corals in the shop that have come from location to location with me for well over the last 7-10 years....and a bunch of them are SPS....
As far as doing well with SPS...again....guess you don't pay much attention or open your eyes when you go into the shops you mentioned....over the last 10+ years


you might want to re read the linked article again...cause it clearly states the ranges in which we run our systems (and many industry leaders)

you quoted my exact point....there is no "ideal temperature"

I was merely telling Marshall that temp is not one of his issue....and you continue to beat a dead horse....as the rest of the reefing community (or most with some experience) already know this. But for some reason you don't, and choose to be completely closed off. hey to each his own....I am trying to help people, by clearing many myths in this hobby. I spent 12 years in Medford with 18 saltwater tanks in my 2 bedroom apartment and over 80 service accounts...literally challenging and trying everything I could possibly read and hear to see what was true and what was garbage. Let me tell you....don't believe most of what you read....cause it can easily be proven wrong...and this was done long term over years...not just a few months like many other people do and feel is adequate.

Again...anyone that wants to doubt what I have said, is more than welcome to come by and see for themselves....no smole and mirrors here. Not arrogant, just giving you the proof you claim to need. Seeing is believing right???

And Nick, I treat every system in here like they are my personal home tanks.....oh, that's right....CAUSE THEY ARE!

 

[saltwaterB]

Nick,

by your arrogant and ignorant response...I can see you have some other agenda and would like to blatantly lie...

and you should really get your facts straight...cause you don't know hardly anything that you think you know.....lol

you summary of my history is so far off it is hilarious...

and again you lie by saying that you have not seen Corals I have for long term....hahahaha....you obviously don't open your eyes much.....there are Corals in the shop that have come from location to location with me for well over the last 7-10 years....and a bunch of them are SPS....
As far as doing well with SPS...again....guess you don't pay much attention or open your eyes when you go into the shops you mentioned....over the last 10+ years


you might want to re read the linked article again...cause it clearly states the ranges in which we run our systems (and many industry leaders)

you quoted my exact point....there is no "ideal temperature"

I was merely telling Marshall that temp is not one of his issue....and you continue to beat a dead horse....as the rest of the reefing community (or most with some experience) already know this. But for some reason you don't, and choose to be completely closed off. hey to each his own....I am trying to help people, by clearing many myths in this hobby. I spent 12 years in Medford with 18 saltwater tanks in my 2 bedroom apartment and over 80 service accounts...literally challenging and trying everything I could possibly read and hear to see what was true and what was garbage. Let me tell you....don't believe most of what you read....cause it can easily be proven wrong...and this was done long term over years...not just a few months like many other people do and feel is adequate.

Again...anyone that wants to doubt what I have said, is more than welcome to come by and see for themselves....no smole and mirrors here. Not arrogant, just giving you the proof you claim to need. Seeing is believing right???

And Nick, I treat every system in here like they are my personal home tanks.....oh, that's right....CAUSE THEY ARE!

 

[saltwaterB]

Brendon,
I think I know your history very well. Started Perfect Pet tank maintenance in 1996, worked at Tropic Isle, Skipton, Aqua Addict, Aquarium Gallery, started your own for few months, went back to Skipton, then went on your own again to present day a little over a year ago.

just for some clarification...since Nick has no clue as to what he is talking about (guess that is a common thing...lol)

This has no place in this thread, but I am not going to let someone just sit here and lie and slander me

in 1990 I started my first job at Pet Stop in Lawrence....worked there through High School...then went to College at Northeastern in 93' Which I then went to work for Boston Pet in Cambridge. They became a Petco in 1996 which is when I quit and went and opened up The Perfect Pet. During this time I started at Skipton Pet center (97) in 2001' I left and went to Tropic Isle for about 6-8 months (I could not stand Sharon, so I left) I did pond and water feature work for several landscape companies still doing service with The Perfect Pet. In the summer 2003 Mike and Joe opened Aqua Addicts...but were only open on weekends cause they worked full time jobs. 8 months later after building that business to a very successful start, Mike and Joe informed me they were going to quit there jobs and work the store full time. So, after helping them out I could see it was time to go...lol That brings me back to Skipton's again. Form 2004 to 2005, when Aquarium Gallery opened. I saw and opportunity I could not pass up. And that was absolutely amazing, until about 2 years later, when one of the owners (husband and wife team with no experience or clue about aquariums) told me she read a book and could do my job better....well, lets just say I had a few choice words for her...to the point she fired me...and, well we all know what happened to AG over the next few months....lol Anyway, I then took a year off to get ready to open Unique Aquaria in Billerica. And in 2008 we opened...a little less than a year after that I got an offer to buy into Skiptons and roll my assets into that business. I would have been crazy to pass that up. Then after being an owner there and actually buying the entire thing.(then turning it into Skipton Unique Aquaria & Reptiles. I decided it would be better to move out of the city....shed the $10,000 a month rent and the $30,000 a year in theft...not to mention the terrible attitude of people (being that we were located on Methadone mile) So that brings us to the Woburn location in 2012 for a year....well after Cummings property showed us there true colors...there was no way we were going to stay with them...they are gangsters, absolutely ridiculous. And we have been here in Tewksbury for a year and a half...
Well that is my 24 years of experience rolled into a nutshell and I have been on my own since 2008...get your facts straight....!
So before you open your mouth and spew a bunch of wrong information, maybe you should know what you are talking about....on many different subjects...