Help with Coral Issues

[Marshall O]

And I should have posted this earlier, but the temperatures I have been posting are the return temps. The actual tank water is obviously higher than this, 76.1-76.6.

To hopefully 100% rule out temp, I did bump up my set points by .4°. This will bring the tank temps to 76.5-77.0. Return temps 76.0-76.4. Hopefully that will end the temperature discussion (in that my tank is running too low for my corals).

 

[this is me]

Marshall,
I don't think we've ever met but let me get a chance to apologize for your thread getting out of hand a bit between me and Brandon.
He just not man enough to admit that 74-75 is not the optimal temperature where you should keep your reef. Large facility keep their temp low because of cost. That's pretty obvious. Who would want to heat up thousands of gallons when you don't have to? Even the Author of the article he referenced to stated 26-30C(78.8-86) is the optimum temperature. (86 is too high IMO).
As a hobbyist like you, I really wish you solve your issue. I know how frustrating it is but you have to keep trying. I hope I helped in some way but if nothing else, you did get a nice auto-bibliography from Brendon.

 

[Marshall O]

Nick, we have not met (that I know of). I am all for the discussion this has all provoked. Although don't confuse "optimum temp" with "acceptable temp" Though I don't know anyone who keeps there SPS tank below 74-75, LA & DD both list the water temp range as 72-78. I think we can all agree that corals will grow faster with warmer temps due to increased metabolism. But I still don't believe there is any harm running temps where I do.

Either way, I have appreciated everyone's comments on this thread. I feel my tank has more of a chance to succeed now than it did before I started this. So its all good

 

[this is me]

Why would anyone run a tank at "acceptable" level when you can run it at "optimal" level besides large holding facilities and certain LFS?

 

[cilyjr]

Because of his cooler water wrasses.

 

[jackalope]

I have been in the hobby for about 11 years now. I have worked for LFS stores and as a service tech.... That being said I/clients have had the most success with temperature 78 and under. I am sure there are people who have success with the temp higher and I have seen tanks do well with higher temps , but those tanks were more susceptible to pest algae outbreaks and issues with fish (me personally with flame wrasses sad ). I personally keep my tank at 75-77. I have a friend who keeps their reef at 73. They have almost no algae growth and have had great success with their fish (tangs and angels). The corals are growing slower, but are fully open and happy.

PS average water temp on the great barrier reef between July-September is 72-74 degrees

 

[this is me]

PS average water temp on the great barrier reef between July-September is 72-74 degrees

sigh...........here we go again.
Do you know what season it is in the month of July-Sept in that part of the world?
http://data.aims.gov.au/aimsrtds/ye...10,2011,2012,2013,2014&dataLevel=1&wind=false

 

[jackalope]

Yes, that is true that it is there "winter" season. That being said corals still thrive in the ocean at that temperature and in aquariums. Its safe to say that a temperature of 75 degrees would not cause a wide spread affect on his reef.

 

[this is me]

No it might not be the only cause. But add other stressors on the tank, it very well be the last straw that broke the camel's back.
Don't be fooled by holding facilities keeping their tanks at 72-74 degrees. They only do it to cut cost of heating. There's thd other 3 months where reef water temp go up to 85degrees. Do you see them keeping their tanks at this temp? Of course not! They would lose their margin for profit. The cold hard truth is, they only have to hold the livestock for several weeks or months. Why throw your profit away.

 

[Marshall O]

Why would anyone run a tank at "acceptable" level when you can run it at "optimal" level besides large holding facilities and certain LFS?

What you are missing is there are far more factors I'm considering than coral growth. As mentioned I run my tank cooler for my fish specifically. To me, there is no question that a cooler tank is the way to go for a well stocked tank. More dissolved oxygen, slower metabolisms, able to keep cooler cooler water fish, etc. To me, where I keep my tank is optimum.

Keep an open mind here. There are a million different ways to run reef tanks. We all may not agree on what others are doing, but they may just as successful as anyone else using their methods.

All I was saying is if we can all agree that corals can live in the temperatures I'm running my tank at, we can rule that out as any potential issue. There have been many posts already stating the temps corals are found at. But this is not the ocean. It is a small enclosed glass box.

 

[reefstarter]

I run all my tanks at around 76 , everything is happy . My fish def like the "cooler " water , my sps is showing awesome growth at those temps too . even though sometimes it will drop to 74.5 and get all the way to 78 in a day sometimes , ( you try and heat 600 gallons of water you'll see why ) I am considering running a heat loop off my boiler to heat the water with a coil of pex tubing wrapped around a 12 inch piece of PVC my problem is getting a temp probe attached to the boiler control somehow . this should cut my electrical cost a lot . And since we are creating an artificial evnviroment for our precious creatures since we can not duplicate the ocean in a glass box this is what works . The ocean has a whole array of things in it that we simply can't keep alive in our tanks . not to mention the different minerals and stuff we can't even measure for . Even if we could there is no scientific evidence any of it matters to our livestock . We in the hobby know more about corals than the scientist do

 

[reefstarter]

Just read back a bit , and wanted to say this . When I was driving all over to find LFS that had what I need or want a year ago , I tool my wife and daughter to UA when we pulled up my wife saw the little sign and the doors and said , that place looks small I don't know lol . I walked in and saw the scollys and other stuff in his Elos and ran to the door calling them in lol. Since then I have gotten to know him and a few other LFS owners . B def takes the time with each of his customers to be sure they have what they need , and would rather NOT sell a thing if you don't need it or he feels your livestock will have a hard time in your tank . He really does care about them like they are his own . So do other sponsors of the club. The key here is keeping an open mind as Marshal certainly has . kudos to you Marshal for taking all the post here and keeping your cool . I get that Nick is only trying to help and so is B the passion both have for this hobby is great . just both have some different Ideas on how they get there . I have always wanted to get all the LFS sponsors together in one room , start a debate , have the notebook ready and watch the fireworks lol. As long as everyone could keep an open mind and not start yelling at each other of course . it would be the most educational debate the hobby has ever seen . Or a giant disaster lol

 

[PSU4ME]

Hey Marshall, were you able to stop the rtn on the frags you clipped and moved you your 50g?

 

[cilyjr]

So I to read back again with the threads purpose in mind.

I am going back to what dong said with a blast of too much light. I had a similar problem when I blasted my Ai lights back 3 years ago when I put them on. The digi pic specifically what got me thinking. Did you say you changed to a full spectrum led from a different led a few months back? Maybe the huge blast of light in the cooler temps made for unhappy coral. Then if you are inclined to believe those who stated that bacteria from coral death can infect other coral, it started getting to some others.

I'm on the fence about rtn/stn issues jumping from coral to coral. As I've stated earlier I've not heard of it until now. My own experience with coral does not support it but I deal with STN quickly the times I've seen it.
The one piece I'm thinking of though that makes it is a decently large tabling acro I have it's about 5 inches now. It started to STN from an alk spike but when the problem was corrected the coral stopped dying back. Now it's regrown over the old calcified areas. I watched it slowly spread over the old skeletal structure.

 

[Marshall O]

Hey Marshall, were you able to stop the rtn on the frags you clipped and moved you your 50g?

Its only been a couple of days, but STN seems to have stopped on all corals, whether I moved them to the 50 or kept them in the 125.

 

[Marshall O]

So I to read back again with the threads purpose in mind.

I am going back to what dong said with a blast of too much light. I had a similar problem when I blasted my Ai lights back 3 years ago when I put them on. The digi pic specifically what got me thinking. Did you say you changed to a full spectrum led from a different led a few months back? Maybe the huge blast of light in the cooler temps made for unhappy coral. Then if you are inclined to believe those who stated that bacteria from coral death can infect other coral, it started getting to some others.

Thank you for taking your time to help! I am in agreement. Of all the factors that could be possible for the issues, I think lighting played a very large part. I don't think switching from blue/white fixtures to full spectrum fixtures was the issue. Rather I have been slowly increasing intensity of the fixtures over time. I apparently reached the point where the intensity was too high. So as mentioned, I dialed back the intensity for both channels, plus a lowered the whites another 5% on all fixtures per Brendon's recommendation. Again, still early, but this does seem to have helped. I forgot to take a picture of my red Monti cap. That had a lot of STN. We will see if new tissue is able to grow over the now dead tissue.

 

[cilyjr]

not so much switching from 1 fixture to the other, but fixture A at 50% might far less lighting then fixture B at 50%. then bringing them up on top of that

 

[Marshall O]

not so much switching from 1 fixture to the other, but fixture A at 50% might far less lighting then fixture B at 50%. then bringing them up on top of that

Understood, however the old fixtures and new both have 55 3W LEDs. I started the newer units at a lower intensity than the old ones. I did not see any issues at all with the switch. The new ones have been running since January, so almost a year. I do think increasing the intensity recently was a big part of the issue as mentioned.

 

[PSU4ME]

Whatever caused your stn, it seems like it is slowing or going away. You've adjusted so many things and if you think about it, you've "eased up" on your system. Take for example the temp, at the low end, alk was getting low, lighting possibly on the high end (although I don't remember a par measurement so I'm not sure) and if you got "something" in the tank to start the domino effect then this could all make sense and hopefully you're on the upside. Stability and water changes should get you across the finish line.

With your lights being on the tank so long and unless your pumping 700-800 par out, I don't see that being THE reason..... Same with temp, alk etc etc.

You've seen my sps tank, led with recent t5 retros that has been up and running for 2.5 years. Temp goes from 78-80 depending on the time of year, lighting is putting out 500par mid tank and the alk has been in the 7-8.5 range over that span.

You may never know the reason and I wouldn't switch anything out (don't think anyone is recommending that) so keep it stable and change out the water and you'll be set.

Swing down my place one day, I'll give you a few sps to replace what you lost

 

[delta]

There are things we can not account for and when you have a heavily stocked tank when things go wrong and it can take longer to right. And sometimes you just end up taking it on the chin. Bacteria and other stressors, we can't measure for or even identify, can do a lot of damage. So as stated before, sometimes we just never know.

But in this case I do believe this is simple die off causing more die of. IMHO if this situation occurs again just be more proactive about cleanup and it shouldn't continue down hill as long. Doing so would not adversely affect the fish in the system.

Proactive measures would be more frequent water changes, changing out filter media frequently, RODI filter/resin replacement, removing dead corals/frag dead sections, super gluing coral tissue to stop RTN/STN, lowering light intensity.

In the future pay attention to your coral tissue above and beyond the color and polyp extension. A magnifying glass or macro lens is key for this.