anyone run skimmerless tanks?

[KSC]

What are these toxins excreted by different sps species? If that was true I'd think carbon would do a far better job of removing these "sps toxins" than an inefficient bubble tube. There are many people, including myself, who have had success without a skimmer. Here's a few here-http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2113546
"Toxins" don't appear to be having any effect on these different species which have been growing together in a skimmerless tank for a couple years now (I run carbon and GFO in a reactor too)....

 

[inverted]

I haven't heard of anyone claiming SPS released toxins. That is a new one to me. We discussed toxins here:
http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/showthread.php?117470-Which-corals-use-neurotoxins there isn't that much known in my opinion. Nor would you know whether a skimmer or GAC would remove them more efficiently. GAC and GFO work similarly and GAC is more efficient, at least for it's relatively short life-span, but that dosn't mean it removes everything that a skimmer removes. I also doubt "toxicity" even if just for the anecdotal fact that I've run small, closed mixed nano-reefs with no GAC or skimming, with "toxic" corals inches from "sensitive" corals. I tend to think there are combinations of other factors, going on in most cases where toxins are suspect, but that is my opinion.


As to HLLE, this is a popular topic lately. For example, there was this study:
http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/activated-carbon-hlle-smoking-gun-found

Although, it did not show a mechanism for the apparent association, did not really control much if any for other possible factors and did not show any better alternative to carbon. It also, in my opinions, drew some strong, less than scientifically rigorous conclusions, not supported by the data.

The authors published here, with revisions:
The Role of Activated Lignite Carbon in the Development of Head and Lateral Line Erosion in the Ocean Surgeon
Jay Hemdal, R. Andrew Odum
North American Journal of Aquaculture
Vol. 73, Iss. 4, 2011

Also, this article, repeated some of the results, although, again, we don't have a mechanisms or alternative. It is possible protein skimming could cause HLLE (although, if you listen to "unofficial" references on the web, that isn't the case. I'm not a big fan of unpublished chatter though).
Effects of Full-Stream Carbon Filtration on the Development of Head and Lateral Line Erosion Syndrome (HLLES) in Ocean Surgeon
M. Andrew Stamper, Michele M. Kittell, Erin E. Patel, Allison L. Corwin
Journal of Aquatic Animal Health
Vol. 23, Iss. 3, 2011

I've been busy, so I haven't had a chance to start a new thread. We can move the discussion there, especially if it continues.

 

[Aquaman_68]

What are these toxins excreted by different sps species? If that was true I'd think carbon would do a far better job of removing these "sps toxins" than an inefficient bubble tube. There are many people, including myself, who have had success without a skimmer. Here's a few here-http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2113546
"Toxins" don't appear to be having any effect on these different species which have been growing together in a skimmerless tank for a couple years now (I run carbon and GFO in a reactor too)....

Ur not running a skimmer but ur using multiple chemical/mechanical means of filtering... Ok so pretty much u fall on the lines of the delicate balance I stated in my last post....Not a hobbiest in my opinion....Or maybe a hobbiest with alot of time on their hands or...can I say not on a system established for many many years & thriving.... Not 2 years...Like 10 years is what I consider many.....or at least thru the first possible old tank syndrome episode which can happen from 4 to 5 years in!!!

until u have gone thru old tank syndrome & survived....(& we all do if we stay in it long enough) u really haven't taken reefing to the edge!!! It can take years for organics to build up in the rock & substrate rendering it useless in a biological sense... by using chemical/mechanical means of water purification....u r essentially taking out the "natural" escence of true reefing... Kinda like a major contradiction to the whole purpose of going skimmerless in my feeble opinion...

 

[KSC]

Not really. I think most hobbiest's that keep mainly SPS run carbon, and many have run some form of GFO for years. Most who run skimmerless tanks do nothing different than the average hobbyist. There's a guy called Steve Tyree, he might have a few skimmerless tanks that are older than yours. He has had some great success without running a skimmer, and made a ferw bucks selling SPS from his skimmerless systems. Here's some good reading on the subject by Tyree......

-The Environmental Gradient is the name for a completely natural method of captive reef tank filtration. Primary filtration of dissolved organics and pelagic bacteria within this new filtration method is performed by living sponges and sea squirts. Berlin style reef aquaria utilize a protein skimmer to remove dissolved organics, but lack any natural method to control pelagic bacterial densities. The use of living sponges and sea squirts presents a much more natural method to maintain captive reef aquaria. Additional advantages of this new method are its low operational costs combined with the inherent ability to maintain a more diverse assemblage of macro organisms. This web page is dedicated to the EG filtration philosophy. It can be reached directly with the following link.

http://www.dynamicecomorphology.com/getzoned.htm

 

[inverted]

Old tank syndrome is a great point. My original tank has been running for over 10 years (although, just moved to a new tank). I haven't actually seen any major OTS recently, but it is more of a softcoral tank. There have been periods of decline though. (Even being a softcoral tank, it's worth noting that there was an apparent dramatic improvement within a month or so, of adding a skimmer Before that, filtration, was GAC, water changes and Chemi-pure. ). I think there are a lot of factors. Certainly no one filtration method will remove everything and very slow accumulation of anything remotely toxic could potentially cause issues latter. So a mix of filtration is probably necessary. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if that could be done with or without a skimmer.

For people who have never heard of Old Tank Syndrome though.

Mike Paletta did a good article on it:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/5/aafeature2

as did Julian Sprung:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/10/aafeature

 

[KSC]

Old tank syndrome= old reefers tale. I've seen nothing that would suggest a skimmer would prevent the mythical syndrome. A 50% water change might help though....

 

[me2003]

Now I am not sure which thread this belongs in but one of theories of old tank syndrome is
the build up of toxins released by corals.
I am not sure if "Old tank syndrome" exists and agree that a "A 50% water change might help though...."

Julian Sprung:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/10/aafeature
Accumulation of allelopathic coral metabolites

Borneman (2001, 2002d) discusses potential effects of various allelopathic metabolic products from hard and soft corals that leach into the water, and provides a list of supporting reference material from the scientific literature. This concept has been visited before (see for example, Wilkens, 1990; Delbeek and Sprung, 1994). While it is true that abundance of soft corals in an aquarium can limit the vigor of stony corals and vice versa, the problem is explaining how this effect can become chronically worse as an aquarium ages. We think of it as an issue of the composition of corals in the aquarium, and we know this presents an interesting challenge when planning this composition.

 

[stingythingy45]

Build up of toxins from what?
Old tank syndrome really has to do more with a sand beds ability to help with nitrates or becomes too saturated with nitrates itself that it hinders water quality.
Mostly happens with a DSB.
JMO,but I'd never run a tank without a skimmer.Most times this subject comes up is cause someone new doesn't want to spend a little extra $$$ to help with good water quality.

 

[me2003]

In addition to the removal of material from an aquarium Protein skimmers
help aerate the water. I am not sure if there any studies exist but in
over an crowded tank, this would provide a constant stable mixture of
gasses and should help stabilize Ph changes. (Light photosynthesis Night CO2)
I know the surface of the aquarium does exchange a lot but without surface
skimming and protein skimming oils tend to collect in the surface. Reducing gas exchange.
I have run tanks with out a skimmer and find I have to remove oils from the surface
when doing water changes.

 

[me2003]

"Build up of toxins from what?" corals see article
"Old tank syndrome really has to do more with a sand beds ability to help with nitrates or becomes too saturated with nitrates itself that it hinders water quality." I think this is one of many theories. I always vacuum the substrate which is a different debate

 

[inverted]

I am not sure if there any studies exist but in
over an crowded tank

Eric looked at this. I haven't read it in a while, but as I recall, the take-home message was that photosynthesis supplied most of the O2. Pointing power heads at the surface and such did little. Protein skimming did add a pretty fair amount and with combination, was able to supersaturate the water with O2 (I'm not sure if that is good or bad, too much O2 may not be good either.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/eb/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/eb/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-08/eb/index.php

 

[inverted]

Now I am not sure which thread this belongs in but one of theories of old tank syndrome is
the build up of toxins released by corals.

That's the problem, it's all connected. I think if it goes too far it's worth a separate thread, but if just a few comments, maybe not worth it or we'd have too many threads to follow... That's just my .02 though.

(And BTW, see even Sprung can't bring up the topic without Borneman - Oh man, I shouldn't give Eric a tough time, he has done an incredible amount for the hobby. I just disagree with his emphasis on this particular topic. IMO/IME, it isn't that common an issue.)

 

[Aquaman_68]

Old tank syndrome= old reefers tale. I've seen nothing that would suggest a skimmer would prevent the mythical syndrome. A 50% water change might help though....

i don't think so.....not a tale.......& btw....solution to polution is dilution....so yes..water changes would help.....not 50% though!!!!!! in small amounts to purge rock & substrate will help to lessen the organic level..... ur not going to do it in one day let alone a couple weeks..... 5 % water dilution over the course of a month might help depending on how heavy ur organic level is & how saturated ur rocks r!!!!!

 

[me2003]

I don't believe it is possible to over super saturate with a protein simmer to close to a level that would be an issue.

It has happened before because of other reasons in a large aquarium.
They had to rush the fish to a decompression chamber at a local hospital.
The Use of a Hyperbaric Chamber with Fish Exposed to Exceedingly High Levels of Dissolved Oxygen

http://www.columbuszoo.org/drumcroaker/pdf/2006.pdf

 

[STiTCH87]

So I understand i'm fairly new to the trade technically, but correct me if i'm wrong, if "old tank syndrome" exists, then why not every 5 years just rebuild the tank? Maybe take out half the live rock, dry it, cycle it, and put other LR in its place?
And if there is junk in the sand bed, well I know first hand stirring a sand bed can release nitrates and such into the water column, so essentially I suppose the sand could get "too saturated" if you will.
But sand beds are such a vague term because no two sand beds are alike.

There's deep sand beds, shallow ones, oolite, aragonite, crushed coral, etc etc and each will react different.
It's my understanding that fine sand will not capture as much waste in it than crushed coral since it's so tightly packed, and also my understanding that aragonite never stops working at maintaining a nitrogen cycle and helping with pH and magnesium.

So correct me if i'm wrong, but a tank with a DSB of aragonite, and LR that gets replaced partially every 4 or 5 years, and running the tank maybe one month with GFO and GAC then the next month with a skimmer, and switching back and forth, along with weekly 20% waterchanges, could and should make a tank that could survive inevitably?

...Or did I just come up with a nice story that isn't true? Lol cuz that's certainly a possibility.

 

[inverted]

I don't believe it is possible to over super saturate with a protein simmer to close to a level that would be an issue.

It has happened before because of other reasons in a large aquarium.
They had to rush the fish to a decompression chamber at a local hospital.
The Use of a Hyperbaric Chamber with Fish Exposed to Exceedingly High Levels of Dissolved Oxygen

http://www.columbuszoo.org/drumcroaker/pdf/2006.pdf

Haha, don't want to buy one of those.

As to saturation, there is a researcher Goran Nilsson who has done a lot of work on reef fish and O2 levels. Generally, I think real reefs are actually lower in O2 than many of our tanks. I know he has show reef fish to be pretty tolerant of low O2. IIRC it is though to be because many fish hide in the branches of corals at night, where O2 becomes hypoxic. I don't know whether reef fish are actually, necessarily adapted to higher O2 levels as most probably would assume. You could have subclinical effects or even more moderate clinical effects without the severity. Whether or not that would be a real world issue I don't know. And not all of the fish we keep are "reef fish". I remember on study (maybe by Goran, I'll have to look when I am on an actual computer) that found slight differences in O2 levels had fairly substantial changes in reef fish behavior.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dz6t]

i don't think so.....not a tale.......& btw....solution to polution is dilution....so yes..water changes would help.....not 50% though!!!!!! in small amounts to purge rock & substrate will help to lessen the organic level..... ur not going to do it in one day let alone a couple weeks..... 5 % water dilution over the course of a month might help depending on how heavy ur organic level is & how saturated ur rocks r!!!!!

I agree that it is not a tale. I removed the sand bed and so far so good.
For an established reef tank, it is not poosible and IMHO, not a good thing to do, to take down the tank and scrub it up. It would set back all the micro life forms in a reef tank which are important for bio-filtration.
May be we should ask the question that, why someone will not use a skimmer.
One major draw back using chemical filtration is that you can't tell when you need to change out the chemicals. For a skimmer, you can easily tell when it needs a cleaning and when it is broken.
just my $0.02

 

[dz6t]

There's a guy called Steve Tyree, he might have a few skimmerless tanks that are older than yours. He has had some great success without running a skimmer, and made a ferw bucks selling SPS from his skimmerless systems. Here's some good reading on the subject by Tyree......

-The Environmental Gradient is the name for a completely natural method of captive reef tank filtration. Primary filtration of dissolved organics and pelagic bacteria within this new filtration method is performed by living sponges and sea squirts. Berlin style reef aquaria utilize a protein skimmer to remove dissolved organics, but lack any natural method to control pelagic bacterial densities. The use of living sponges and sea squirts presents a much more natural method to maintain captive reef aquaria. Additional advantages of this new method are its low operational costs combined with the inherent ability to maintain a more diverse assemblage of macro organisms. This web page is dedicated to the EG filtration philosophy. It can be reached directly with the following link.

http://www.dynamicecomorphology.com/getzoned.htm

I build a cryptic sump based on Tyree's idea except I do not cover the sump in total darkness (I don't think it is necessary). There are many many sponges in the sump and pods everywhere.

 

[STiTCH87]

I didn't so much mean taking down the tank, as say removing a few chunks of rock and replacing them. And honestly, I personally would never run a tank without a skimmer with the exception of picos as there are no efficient skimmers for such small tanks. Even if you use GFO and GAC, i'd say do this test, dose regularly for a full month, then use a skimmer after for awhile. I'm almost positive that you'd pull all sorts of waste from the water. They each have their goods and bads but I think a skimmer is worth while. Maybe not REQUIRED or specifically necessary, but it certainly does more good than bad IMO.

 

[dz6t]

I didn't so much mean taking down the tank, as say removing a few chunks of rock and replacing them. And honestly, I personally would never run a tank without a skimmer with the exception of picos as there are no efficient skimmers for such small tanks. Even if you use GFO and GAC, i'd say do this test, dose regularly for a full month, then use a skimmer after for awhile. I'm almost positive that you'd pull all sorts of waste from the water. They each have their goods and bads but I think a skimmer is worth while. Maybe not REQUIRED or specifically necessary, but it certainly does more good than bad IMO.

Yes, skimmer may not be required and there are evidence to support it. I think skimmer and GFO, GAC are complementary to each other. I use both method.