anyone run skimmerless tanks?

[STiTCH87]

Skimming doesn't remove the efficiency of GFO and GAC? I know a lot of things chemically say not to use with a skimmer because it will remove it from the water. Then again GAC and GFO isn't technically in the water column anyways...

 

[Aquaman_68]

So I understand i'm fairly new to the trade technically, but correct me if i'm wrong, if "old tank syndrome" exists, then why not every 5 years just rebuild the tank? Maybe take out half the live rock, dry it, cycle it, and put other LR in its place?
And if there is junk in the sand bed, well I know first hand stirring a sand bed can release nitrates and such into the water column, so essentially I suppose the sand could get "too saturated" if you will.
But sand beds are such a vague term because no two sand beds are alike.

There's deep sand beds, shallow ones, oolite, aragonite, crushed coral, etc etc and each will react different.
It's my understanding that fine sand will not capture as much waste in it than crushed coral since it's so tightly packed, and also my understanding that aragonite never stops working at maintaining a nitrogen cycle and helping with pH and magnesium.

So correct me if i'm wrong, but a tank with a DSB of aragonite, and LR that gets replaced partially every 4 or 5 years, and running the tank maybe one month with GFO and GAC then the next month with a skimmer, and switching back and forth, along with weekly 20% waterchanges, could and should make a tank that could survive inevitably?

...Or did I just come up with a nice story that isn't true? Lol cuz that's certainly a possibility.

one of the subjects I brought to light on our journeys to meetings.....(sometimes as I stated above lasting upwards of 2 hours)

So we had what I thought....was a great discussion of having multiple skimmers in ur stock that could be switched out on a system every say 3-4 months... (that is different forms of foam fractioning.. )

Back then some thought using two skimmer at the same time would do double the filtering when in fact they do the opposite.....They work against eachother & produce less skimming effect. That is due to the surface tension being effected by running two skimmers simultaniously. one knocks the other foam down & visa versa...(kinda like putting ur hand in the tank!!!)

IE for the less experienced trolling this side:

Becket skimmers, downdraft skimmers & needle wheel skimmers..... All produce a different foam which in turn would remove a different form of organics... from heavier to lighter..... Seen this first hand on an experiment by accident at a LFS...they were running PM bullet skimmers in their shop....after three years...the skimmers were like they were not even working...(with valves clean & pumps clean....)

So by accident... they brought in & stocked, cheap, turbo floaters skimmers because they were a less expensive line & it would cater to the beginner.

They decided to hook one up as a display unit to show the customers on one tank.....


It was pulling so much junk out of the tank it was setup on & they were amazed.....They switched all the systems to these skimmers but one in the store......well....needlesss to say...it was short lived......cause once the skimmer pulled out the organics it was capable of removing thru it's form of fractioning....it stopped producing skimmate.....& the tanks took a huge dump.... (but it took quite some time for the organics to build up.....)


They eventually switched back & removed the TF skimmers....

something to ponder....surface tension created in the skimmer changes with different forms of fractioning.....

Different forms of fractioning = different forms of organics being removed!!

so U think this should b split to another discussion?

Cool with me...

So the end result.....all this info & 2.01 cents will buy u a med coffee at my local DD!!!

 

[dz6t]

Skimming doesn't remove the efficiency of GFO and GAC? I know a lot of things chemically say not to use with a skimmer because it will remove it from the water. Then again GAC and GFO isn't technically in the water column anyways...

Skimmer remove organic compounds using surfactant (Surfactants are compounds that lower the surface tension of a liquid) effect. GAC removes water soluble compounds.

 

[dz6t]

one of the subjects I brought to light on our journeys to meetings.....(sometimes as I stated above lasting upwards of 2 hours)

So we had what I thought....was a great discussion of having multiple skimmers in ur stock that could be switched out on a system every say 3-4 months... (that is different forms of foam fractioning.. )

Back then some thought using two skimmer at the same time would do double the filtering when in fact they do the opposite.....They work against eachother & produce less skimming effect. That is due to the surface tension being effected by running two skimmers simultaniously. one knocks the other foam down & visa versa...(kinda like putting ur hand in the tank!!!)

IE for the less experienced trolling this side:

Becket skimmers, downdraft skimmers & needle wheel skimmers..... All produce a different foam which in turn would remove a different form of organics... from heavier to lighter..... Seen this first hand on an experiment by accident at a LFS...they were running PM bullet skimmers in their shop....after three years...the skimmers were like they were not even working...(with valves clean & pumps clean....)

So by accident... they brought in & stocked, cheap, turbo floaters skimmers because they were a less expensive line & it would cater to the beginner.

They decided to hook one up as a display unit to show the customers on one tank.....


It was pulling so much junk out of the tank it was setup on & they were amazed.....They switched all the systems to these skimmers but one in the store......well....needlesss to say...it was short lived......cause once the skimmer pulled out the organics it was capable of removing thru it's form of fractioning....it stopped producing skimmate.....& the tanks took a huge dump.... (but it took quite some time for the organics to build up.....)


They eventually switched back & removed the TF skimmers....

something to ponder....surface tension created in the skimmer changes with different forms of fractioning.....

Different forms of fractioning = different forms of organics being removed!!

so U think this should b split to another discussion?

Unless you analyze the skimmate from different skimmers, I personally won't draw this conclusion.

 

[niftyjosh]

I love information that I haven't heard before.

I think I'll do some research on fractioning aquaman. Thanks.

If anyone wants to take 3-4 hours to do research and copy/paste the highlights, I'll skim through them. But remember, when copy/pasting, it's good to cite your sources so they get the credit.

 

[dz6t]

I think we can do some hard science experiment regarding the theory brough up by Aquaman.
If skimmate from different types of skimmer on the SAME tank can be obtained, I can arrange them to be tested by LC-MS (need to collect donation for a small fee to pay a commercial lab).

 

[dz6t]

If we can obtain scientific data, we can write a paper and publish it with all of us as authors. Isn't it great to see your name as an author on a paper or magazine?

 

[inverted]

I think we can do some hard science experiment regarding the theory brough up by Aquaman.
If skimmate from different types of skimmer on the SAME tank can be obtained, I can arrange them to be tested by LC-MS (need to collect donation for a small fee to pay a commercial lab).

If you ran them on the same tank there are other factors that could confound the results. If you ran them, one after the other, for example, the first could just remove things before the second was able to. (i.e. Maybe there is a preferential order of removal, for certain compounds by all skimmers.) If you ran them together, perhaps the flow pattern for example, could favor one before the other. So, I think you would need to do something along the lines of taking a large water sample and splitting it up into smaller tanks. Then running the skimmers separately in the separate tanks. Could be as simple as mixing up saltwater in a trash can adding mix of foods, waiting a few days and transferring the water to separate small aquariums with the skimmers. If the could see chipping in for such an experiment though depending on price and other factors such as sensitivity/specificity of the test.


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[Aquaman_68]

I think we can do some hard science experiment regarding the theory brough up by Aquaman.
If skimmate from different types of skimmer on the SAME tank can be obtained, I can arrange them to be tested by LC-MS (need to collect donation for a small fee to pay a commercial lab).

Dong, I would love to see that happen!!!how much would it cost?

 

[Aquaman_68]

If you ran them on the same tank there are other factors that could confound the results. If you ran them, one after the other, for example, the first could just remove things before the second was able to. (i.e. Maybe there is a preferential order of removal, for certain compounds by all skimmers.) If you ran them together, perhaps the flow pattern for example, could favor one before the other. So, I think you would need to do something along the lines of taking a large water sample and splitting it up into smaller tanks. Then running the skimmers separately in the separate tanks. Could be as simple as mixing up saltwater in a trash can adding mix of foods, waiting a few days and transferring the water to separate small aquariums with the skimmers. If the could see chipping in for such an experiment though depending on price and other factors such as sensitivity/specificity of the test.


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If you ran two different types of skimmers on the same tank at the same time that WOULD confound the results. Surface tension would b compromised running two types of skimmers simultaniously... each one would work against eachother & knock the foam production down....pretty much rendering ur test of " accuracy" useless....
r u not reading the text I typed above? (not copy & paste I may add) This is from experience learned personally thru a LFS...I was there to witness this personally....I didn't read it online!!!


Can I ask u a question off topic? (let me state this before I do...... that this questions isn't meant to insult u)


Where U on a Debate team in college or high school?

 

[delta]

Last time Dong tested skimmate, it was a taste test :: http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/showthread.php?29013

I hope it will be more scientific this time around

 

[Aquaman_68]

Oh man....I haven't eaten lunch yet....(now I think I'll wait)

LOL

 

[inverted]

If you ran two different types of skimmers on the same tank at the same time that WOULD confound the results.

Yes, that is what I just said....

Surface tension would b compromised running two types of skimmers simultaniously... each one would work against eachother & knock the foam production down....pretty much rendering ur test of " accuracy" useless....

I couldn't really say what physics are occurring, I could speculate though. As speculation, that sounds feasible, and I am not sure where I disagreed?

r u not reading the text I typed above? (not copy & paste I may add) This is from experience learned personally thru a LFS...I was there to witness this personally....I didn't read it online!!!

Okay, that's very nice... I've also run two skimmers as well, on my own tank, and have seen the results in person. I still am not sure of what physical processes are occurring. So, I guess I'm missing your point.

Can I ask u a question off topic? (let me state this before I do...... that this questions isn't meant to insult u)


Where U on a Debate team in college or high school?

No. I have been involved in science academically and/or professionally for about 14 years. I'm trained to seek scientifically rigorous conclusions, and not to accept anecdotal conjecture and opinion presented under the guise of fact...

 

[dz6t]

Last time Dong tested skimmate, it was a taste test :: http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/showthread.php?29013

I hope it will be more scientific this time around

You have to bring that up, do you!::
Taste test is not suitable for this forum, it was not advance enough!
BTW, it tasted like chicken...err...chicken soup.

 

[dz6t]

If you ran them on the same tank there are other factors that could confound the results. If you ran them, one after the other, for example, the first could just remove things before the second was able to. (i.e. Maybe there is a preferential order of removal, for certain compounds by all skimmers.) If you ran them together, perhaps the flow pattern for example, could favor one before the other. So, I think you would need to do something along the lines of taking a large water sample and splitting it up into smaller tanks. Then running the skimmers separately in the separate tanks. Could be as simple as mixing up saltwater in a trash can adding mix of foods, waiting a few days and transferring the water to separate small aquariums with the skimmers. If the could see chipping in for such an experiment though depending on price and other factors such as sensitivity/specificity of the test.


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My thought is to run three skimers at the same time on a tank full of salt water from several established large reef tanks.
Lets say several people bring 5 gallon bucket of water each to fill a 50 gallon tank, then run three skimmers at the same time.
We only need to collect 0.5 mL of skimmate from each skimmer.
Then do an ACN/water extraction follow by filtration. This will dissolve the organic in the skimmates to make a suitable sample for LC-MS.
We just need to compare the spectrum from the three samples to see if there is difference in organic contents.
I will ask my friend who owns a company with LC-MS how much it cost for three samples.

 

[STiTCH87]

I do agree that different methods of skimmers clean different types of waste. A friend of mine went thru of all types on his stores 75g and he had a pinwheel skimmer that skimmed amazing and one day stopped working, and after weeks of trying to get it working again (I even tried and couldn't figure it out) it would barely skim anymore so the shop got a new skimmer that was a beckett style and that thing pulled CRAZY waste from the tank. To be fair it was only light tea water for a few weeks, but eventually it caught up and worked awesome. More than the other skimmer ever did and that was the same week the other skimmer had been running. So Chris and I figured the old skimmer must've just crapped the bed because we had already tried cleaning it adjusting it and looking for signs of wear to no avail.

Lo and behold, the new skimmer ended up doing the same exact thing after around half a year. However, instead of buying a new skimmer, Chris put back on the old needle wheel one (reef octopus IIRC) and no lie, it skimmed junk out that was thick and muddy.

One skimmer seemed to pull muddy greenish stuff, the other pulled a wetter browner skimmate. Now I know both could be adjusted to be more wet or "dry" but still.

Maybe we just had a coincidental chance of luck? IDK but we experienced it. I never had the though that the two skimmates may have been of different types tho as i've always though all skimmate was the same. We just assumed certain types of skimmers worked better at removing waste from certain parts of the water or something. IDK we never really could figure out why it happened. But reading that sentence Aquaman, is REALLY getting me thinking about it again now.

Man I miss when my LFS had a nice big reef tank. Now it's all crappy and just had LR and a few small containers of inverts -_- and then like 8 small 10g tanks with fish. No corals anymore :'-(


OH and btw i'd totally be down for any tests or donations to get this research done. Would be amazing publicity for BRS if we discovered something and got published.

 

[KSC]

You might discover the secrets that skimmer manufacturers don't want you to know. There was a chemist on RC that tried to organise a similiar test. Only one skimmer company out of the dozen or so he contacted agreed to supply a loaner to the lab, all the others declined. It would be interesting to see how much "gunk" was in the skimmate opposed to the amount of living creatures that the skimmer pulls out. I used to commercial fish a bit years ago, and I can tell you rotting fish smell alot worse than fish poop.....

 

[SteveDola]

I think the qualified test would be if you could collect 30 gallons of tank water(from 1 tank) and have 3 seperate 10g tanks comprised of 3 closely identical equipment and LR (from the same tank) set ups with the only differing factor being the 3 different skimmers of similar tank ratings then DZT6 could obtain the few ml of skimmate to go to analysis.

It would be very interesting to see the difference because the eyeball test tells me from running different skimmers on the same tank that my downdrafts'(ETSS) skimmate was much different than my needlewheels' (PM redline) skimmate.

 

[SteveDola]

You might discover the secrets that skimmer manufacturers don't want you to know. There was a chemist on RC that tried to organise a similiar test. Only one skimmer company out of the dozen or so he contacted agreed to supply a loaner to the lab, all the others declined. It would be interesting to see how much "gunk" was in the skimmate opposed to the amount of living creatures that the skimmer pulls out. I used to commercial fish a bit years ago, and I can tell you rotting fish smell alot worse than fish poop.....

I dont know if you can come that the conclusion that the skimmer companies dont want you to know which method works at exporting which organics but rather having a "test" (out of their control) that could negatively effect their bottom line with a poor performance by their product. There is too much uncertainty and risk involved that outways the reward...especially if you as the company are giving the researcher the instrument to your possible demise.

 

[KSC]

I dont know if you can come that the conclusion that the skimmer companies dont want you to know which method works at exporting which organics but rather having a "test" (out of their control) that could negatively effect their bottom line with a poor performance by their product. There is too much uncertainty and risk involved that outways the reward...especially if you as the company are giving the researcher the instrument to your possible demise.

Third party testing is a common way for manufacturers to validate their claims. I've never seen one independant laboratory test (besides KF's) that has been released (or even non independant) validating any manufacturers claims regarding their version of the bubble tube. Lighting manufacturers post par/spread readings, pump manufacturers post flow rates, heater manufacturers provide wattage ratings etc.. Skimmer manufacturers provide meaningless sclmf and gph readings. You nailed it here, "you as the company are giving the researcher the instrument to your possible demise". KF's researched confirmed it....