How does it work? Vol 2: Ca reactors

[Calciumbuf]

I have found a good rule of thumb when purchasing a reactor is to at least double your tank capacity if not triple to alow for increasing demands as the tank matures, also keep in mind the unit will need to be maintained from time to time so ease of use and breakdown and the quality of the construction should be of importance.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Scott chime in if you are out there !

If you buy a calcium reactor you absolutely need:

A C02 tank to hold the CO2 gas.
A regulator for the CO2 tank to regulate output pressure
A valve to accurately control the C02 output rate
C02

Reccomended Accessories:

Ph controller with electronic control valve to automate effluent pH control OR a pH monitor
pH probe for the monitor or controller
Bubble counter (usually comes with unit)

Can anyone think of anything else ?

As for size...this is important but less so than the size of your protein skimmer. I would buy a unit that is rated to handle 2-3 times your tank and stocking levels....OR be like me and replace your small one with a larger one later when you find it is too small !!!LOL

Sorry guys, moving back towards Intro to Ca Reactors.

What exactly does the above stuff do? Are any of them more important than others? ie. Don't buy one without ....... (fill in the blank). Also, can you use the manufactures recommendations when purchasing one for your size tank. I find that most of the recommendations on protein skimmers are exaggerated.

 

[KevK]

One thing you absolutely need is a "fail safe" solinoid on the regulator. If the power goes out, it stops the CO2. If the CO2 gets pumped into the tank without the pumps running the pH will drop really quick. If the pumps come back on and that low pH water goes into the display tank, really bad things will happen.

 

[Aquadiva]

OK, so Scott wrote that his whiz-bang Ca Reactor has:

1. calibrated glass flow meter -- Obviously good because Chuck said it sounded like a great accessory. Why?

2. needle valve -- Is there another kind that isn't as good?

3. PSI pressure gauge -- Is this a control or just to monitor the pressure

4. and a Precision built-in C02 override assembly -- I am thinking this is the "fail safe" KevK was referring to.

Sorry for these newbie questions, but this is the one piece of equipment that always leaves me baffled.

 

[denvig]

OK, so Scott wrote that his whiz-bang Ca Reactor has:

1. calibrated glass flow meter -- Obviously good because Chuck said it sounded like a great accessory. Why?

2. needle valve -- Is there another kind that isn't as good?

3. PSI pressure gauge -- Is this a control or just to monitor the pressure

4. and a Precision built-in C02 override assembly -- I am thinking this is the "fail safe" KevK was referring to.

Sorry for these newbie questions, but this is the one piece of equipment that always leaves me baffled.

1. This is a visual way to see what the flow is through the reactor and to your sump. It eliminates having to time how long it takes to fill say a 60-milliliter container. It?s just more convenient.
2. The needle valve regulates the co2 input (bubble count) to the reactor a good needle valve is very precise. Which is needed to only let 15 to 60 bubbles of gas out of a co2 tank per min.
3. The pressure in the co2 tank is about 800 to 900 PSI. The pressure gauge lets you know when the tank is running out of gas, the pressure will drop as it runs out. Also this is combined with the regulator that cuts down the pressure to about 20 PSI, a second gauge shows this pressure, before it goes through the needle valve and ultimately to the reactor one bubble at a time.
4. Yes this is the solenoid valve.

 

[JustDavidP]

Awesome thread.. and timely for me. Keep it up....

I'm learning..and waiting for the DIY thang! Someone tell me why I would NOT want to go DIY and why I should spend mucho bucko on a commercial unit....

 

[spectrum]

They're are some drawbacks to DIY.

1. You can get very close, but not exactly as "pretty" as a commercial unit.

2. Gathering the parts can be time consuming. (see my post on the Dble Barrel reactor thread)

3. Purchasing some of the tools you need can get pricey if you don't already have them

4. Making Flanges is simple but to make them "pretty" is time consuming.

5. Nobody to blame but yourself if it leaks

6. The ammount of beer/wine/intoxicant of choice can really dig into your savings.

Merry Christmas,

Dan



4.

 

[Moe_K]

Allrighty, we might as well open the DIY portion of the discussion.

If anyone wants to address a point previously made, please feel free.
But lets talk about DIY (do it yourself). Where can I get a list of parts and tools required? Any online plans to build a good Ca reactor? What level difficulty is a DIY reactor? Where the heck can I find acrylic tubes? Where can I get the rest of the parts?

 

[spectrum]

Sorry Moe,
Actually there are a couple of threads discussing DIY reactors in the DIY forum of all places . No need tho flesh it out here.

Dan

 

[Moe_K]

I'll paste a link to a DIY thread.
http://216.235.242.50/forums/showthread.php?t=5245 - list of parts is the 11th post.

 

[spectrum]

In addition to the parts, here are the tools I use:

Table saw
Router
Bench model beltsander
Reversable 3/8 drill
Set of open end wrenches
Drillpress
1/4 NPT tap
1/2 NPT tap

 

[ScottM]

OK, so Scott wrote that his whiz-bang Ca Reactor has:

1. calibrated glass flow meter -- Obviously good because Chuck said it sounded like a great accessory. Why? this means I can measure the effluent flow rate at a glance. This is HUGE when making minor adjustments to change my output levels
2. Needle valve -- Is there another kind that isn't as good?

the needle valve is on the effluent as well. Again helps in the minor adjustments of modifying the effluent. You have a very sensitive control over your bubble rate and most don't have the same control over their effluent. This solves that issue
3. PSI pressure gauge -- Is this a control or just to monitor the pressure

This monitors the cylinder pressure. Tells me if the reactor is functioning properly or if the media is clogged. A very nice to have
4. And a Precision built-in C02 override assembly -- I am thinking this is the "fail safe" KevK was referring to.
this is a large float that is mounted into the top flange. It has a valve channel that if there is an excess of pressure it will off gas any additional Co2 keeping it from entering into your tank. This is the one thing that makes this reactor unique and is a reason why it is so $$$. This is not something you will find on your average retail or DIY reactor. The fail safe KevK was referring to is a Co2 solenoid that when the power shuts off it closes the valve thus stopping the Co2. This is commonly integrated into the Co2 gauge assy. Sorry for these newbie questions, but this is the one piece of equipment that always leaves me baffled.

 

[ScottM]

here is your common reg with the C02 electric check or safety valve. its only open when power is on.

 

[ScottM]

here's the full unit i have:
(notice this pic does not include the float assy)

 

[ScottM]

and a bad photo of the float

 

[Greg Hiller]

I'll comment on a few things mentioned:

>I have yet to see any scientific data that made me believe that purchasing the fancy reactor medias are worth the $$$<

Then you have not read my articles now have you? Or, maybe what you mean is, you read the articles, but just because one substrate may have more phosphate than another, does that REALLY prove one is better than another...you got me there.

I was going to post the links to my two articles, but unfortunately, one of them has 'aged' in internet time, and the link is dead. Still, the one below addesses some of the issues.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/april2003/short.htm

>How tough are these things to set up once you have one? How much maintenance do they require?<

I have found that calcium reactors are easy to set up and are quite forgiving in the way you manage them. I do almost all adjustments by 'eyeball' anymore. Having some extra CO2 going into your tank IME has not really been an issue, particularly if you have a decent protein skimmer to blow it off.

>I've heard a theory that some media might contain phosphates (PO4). If that's true, could the phosphate be liberated, and then dripped into the tank<

Yup...it is by and large.

>I have a question I wish someone could answer, I have seen this stated many times that a Calcium reactor will not by itself increase Calcium levels, but when the Calcium levels are increased by the addition of Calcium Chloride or similar product it will maintain that level. Having recently set up a reactor this is exactly what happened, but I don't understand why it will not increase the Calcium by itself.<

Answered earlier by others, but I'll rephrase again. A BIG calcium reactor on a small tank can bring calcium and alkalininty up a lot; if they are both low the reactor can bring them both up. One thing to remember, a calcium reactor will not bring things back in balance if they are out of balance.

>I've also read some posts about mixing "dolomite" in with reactor media. I think the idea was to liberate magnesium. Anyone remember more?<

Dolomite is calcium magnesium carbonate I believe.
I've used it before in reactors, but it did not dissolve as fast as the calcium carbonate substrate. For me it was probably due to the fact that the particle size of the dolomite was too large in comparison to the calcium carbonate. For my big tank I toyed with the idea of having both a calcium reactor, and a dolomite reactor, and tuning them separately. Instead, when I found a cheap source of magnesium chloride this became pointless (would have been VERY expesive to boost at 500-600 gallon system with B-ionic magnesium!!!). It is much easier to just measure the magnesium concentration every-so-often and boost it individually should it be low. In most tanks it will not fall low very fast. I usually measure it every several months.

>No one ever answered my question as to whether all the dolomite would dissolve first leaving undisolved calcium carbonate, or visa versa. <

I think they dissolve at a similar rate if they are of a similar size. Dolomite might have a more stable chemical structure than the aragonite form of calcium carbonate though. If anything, the dolomite is likely to dissolve slower. Craig Bingman used to suggest using 1/10th volume of dolomite in a reactor.

>No calcium reactor, by itself, can bring a tank's calcium and alkalinity from really low levels to acceptable levels <

I also disagree with this statement. BUT, it may in many cases be safer to quickly get both calcium and alkalinity into the correct ranges using additives, as being low in either for even a short period of time can spell doom for many corals, particularly fast growing SPS under intense light (believe me, I've killed my share of frags when my frag tank got low in either calcium, alkalinity, or magnesium). Part of the problem is that sometimes when a person gets a new reactor they are very careful with it, and tend not to be aggressive enough with it's use, VERY slowly dialing it in. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with being careful, but if you are slow, while the calcium and alkalinity is low you can do more harm than good.

>Lets throw in a new talking point: what should somebody who is new to Ca reactors look for when trying to decide which model they should buy? and how much should a customer look to pay? <

I think size of the chamber is important as you don't want to have to be changing the medium out more than once every 3-6 months. The reactor also needs a decent sized recirculation pump, or performance will suffer. One of the more common things to go wrong with a calcium reactor IME is that the outflow line can plug. This can be a significant design flaw in some reactors. It might be nice to have a sensor that monitored the flow and alarmed in some fashion when the flow is interupted.

>I put a reactor on my tank and I can't keep my PH at 8.4 anymore. what should i do?<

8.4 is rather high anyhow. I'd shoot more for 8.2, and not be particularly alarmed unless it is below 8.0.

>with my new fishroom my pH was getting as high as 8.6!
So I adjusted my Ca reactor's output effluent pH to around 6.0 to keep my pH down! This is especially pronounced using the pickling lime instead of the calcium hydroxide and is even more pronounced when I first fill up my kalkreactor with kalk<

To my understanding pickling lime and calcium hydroxide are one and the same. Even if they are not, and pickling lime were in fact calicum oxide, once calcium oxide hits water it becomes calcium hydroxide. The only reason I can think of in which you would get variable results with pH in a Nielson kalk (calcium hydroxide) reactor would be if you were dosing some quantity of undissolved calcium hydroxide (a cloudy solution).

 

[stang8s]

Greg-
You compared 2 commercial reactor medias with local limestone. What I meant and would like to see a comparision of is the commercial medias with crushed coral. I have been using Caribsea Geomarine Florida crushed coral in my reactor with great results and it is very very cheap compared to the "reactor medias" out there. Any data on that sorta thing?
Jeff

 

[Greg Hiller]

Jeff,

>What I meant and would like to see a comparision of is the commercial medias with crushed coral<

Ah...but I did do that in the first article, and summarized the results at the start of the second article....From the article that is still visable:

> In my experiments I found that a locally quarried limestone had phosphate levels several fold higher than Koralith, but still about 40% lower than a crushed coral aragonite that I'd been using in my calcium reactors at the time. <

I was also using crushed coral that I picked up at a local shop. It in general works fine, after all, the Carib Sea ARM stuff really is just crushed coral. The only difference is that Carib Sea seems to have found a source that tends to be slightly lower in phosphate than most other sources. Is it a big deal?, no, but if you are using A LOT of calcium reactor substrate you will be dumping a LOT of phosphate into your tank. You have to be able to remove it or your corals will suffer. If you purchase the ARM stuff in bulk you can usually get it for abotu $1-1.50/lb.

 

[Matt L.]

To my understanding pickling lime and calcium hydroxide are one and the same. Even if they are not, and pickling lime were in fact calicum oxide, once calcium oxide hits water it becomes calcium hydroxide...

Pickling lime is the lay or common name for calcium hydroxide: Ca(OH)2.

Quick lime is the lay or common name for calcium oxide = CaO

Do not use quick lime unless you know what you are doing and how to handle it! Quick lime is not a benign substance, and as Armando learned the hard way, the conversion of quick lime (calcium oxide) to pickling lime (calcium hydroxide) upon mixing with water is an exothermic reaction (i.e., it generates lots of heat). Not only were Armando's hands burnt (iirc), but his kalkwasser reactor was melted. Stick to pickling lime. Then down the road, you can try and use quick lime but only with careful instruction.

Matt

 

[FishyIdea]

Give us the "Dear Abby" version!

Lets bring it down to the bottom line!

For those keeping "mixed reefs" (a little of everything), at what tank size does having a reactor become more convenient than dosing or dripping kalk?

For those keeping "mixed reefs" (a little of everything), at what tank size does having a reactor become more cost efficient than dosing or dripping kalk?

For those keeping "mixed reefs" (a little of everything), at what tank size does having a reactor become essential to the health of your reef?

For all your reactor-related spending, what percent was driven by gadget-lust and what percent was driven by good old Yankee dollar-for-value analysis?

You could also answer each of these questions from the point of the SPS-only tank as well. I know there are a lot of you out there.

Joe