LFS vs. Online discussion split from FosterSmith Poll

[dz6t]

>If being a BRS member means we are obligated to buy from local sponsor first, please make that clear.<

Dong, it does not.
.

Thank you very much for making that clear.

 

[ScottM]

bottom line is: Their livestock qulity, selection, and service can not be match by ANY local store so far.

its a tough topic.
most LFS realize that thier bulk traffic does not come from web savy customers. IMO I don't think they are looking for the BRS to be thier shield to the online world either.
online quality of livestock and availability has certaily increased over the past few years and an enormous amout of new vendors pop up every day.


I think the real difficulty for the club is when they try to recruit the LFS to support and sponsor them. Most LFS aren't looking to compete with online prices, nor are they looking to haggle over costs. they are certainly not oooking to get called out in an online forum over petty issues. in most cases thats what happens with the BRS customers.

people are going to shop on line and love it. others are going to enjoy supporting the local shop.

form a retail perspective, its comparing apples to oranges.

 

[rjdudek]

Alot of that I think comes from simple overhead and buying power involved. LA can buy their livestock in bulk and probably negotiate better deals.
-Mike

I think there is a lot of truth to that statement, but also consider that many of these companies are managed and run by professional business people. I consistently see very professional marketing that makes it hard to ignore the value of mail order/internet purchases. IO salt is a perfect example, if the local LFS has to pay $32 landed for a bucket, it is their right to ask 50 points, or even keystone it at $64 or higher... but they have to realize that someone else is going to loss leader it to get the "fries & Coke". You can see that at LA also, they have mid sized Yellow Tangs for 16.99 I'll bet most people buy more than just the tang.

I buy salt on-line, it saves me $30 a bucket. While at it I order the fresh Kalk and some new reagents, maybe a bulb or a heater.... all items I would buy locally if I was not already ordering on-line. In the recent past I have found some of the on-line shops more dependable than my locals.

 

[dz6t]

its a tough topic.
most LFS realize that thier bulk traffic does not come from web savy customers. IMO I don't think they are looking for the BRS to be thier shield to the online world either.
online quality of livestock and availability has certaily increased over the past few years and an enormous amout of new vendors pop up every day.


I think the real difficulty for the club is when they try to recruit the LFS to support and sponsor them. Most LFS aren't looking to compete with online prices, nor are they looking to haggle over costs. they are certainly not oooking to get called out in an online forum over petty issues. in most cases thats what happens with the BRS customers.

people are going to shop on line and love it. others are going to enjoy supporting the local shop.

form a retail perspective, its comparing apples to oranges.

I 100% agree with Scott. When we are buying orange, please don't tell us to buy apple.

 

[Andy O]

I bought a $129 (plus shipping) Maxima from LA's Diver Den a couple of weeks ago. When it came, one side of the hinge on the bottom was completely seperated. I called them and said that I was not happy with this and had I known this was the case would not have ordered the clam. The profusely appologized, told me to keep the clam, and refunded my full purchase price, including shipping. Mind you I would have seen this issue had I purchased locally, I don't think that any LFS would be able to take this kind of financial loss. Fosters and Smith has so many divisions that they can afford to take losses in certain areas because of the shear volume and diversity of their business. With many LFS it is tough enought to get credit for a $20 fish.

On the other hand, I like to try and support the LFS as much as I possibly can as long as there is not a great disparity in price. I don't mind paying a bit more but it is tough to justify paying a lot more. With a LFS their is a face that you can turn to when you have various questions or issues with your system or live stock that you are not going to get elsewhere and they will be more apt to go out of their way to help you if you are a good customer.

 

[Chris L]

nobody can tell anyone else where to buy there fish or corals. it is simply a personal choice. i have done both, because i go where i get the best deals plain and simple. i have had good and bad experiences with online and local.

 

[Moe_K]

I bought a mushroom rock online once. It was great. The thing kept producing mushrooms for years. Mushrooms are pretty indestructable, though.
I bought 45 lbs of live rock online back in '98. Good deal. Nice stuff, great price. I also purchased clean up crews online way back when. All decent stuff, no complaints.
I haven't purchased any livestock that's more sensative online. I'd rather see what I'm buying before I purchase. I like to see the fish eat before I buy, and I like to see the color of coral with my own eyes rather than through Photoshop.

 

[Matt L.]

I appreciate the splitting of this thread...

At the end of the day, everyone is going to do what they have to do.

Everyone is free to organize group buys from online vendors. And everyone is free to voice their opinion on the matter.

I understand that there are many times where buying online is not only practical, but necessary. I have never objected to group buys before, nor even objected to buying from online vendors. I certainly have bought plenty (of mostly dry goods) online

I just think that things have gotten a little out of hand lately with an apparent accelerating number of group buys from non-local businesses. This has not gone unnoticed by LFSs, and some of those I've talked to about the matter can not help but take it as a slap in the face.

My only reason for writing my objection was for the same reason that Greg mentioned: the bulkhead metaphor. If we do not support our local businesses, who will support us in an emergency? I feel that ignoring the need for local businesses, or just assuming that "someone else" will support them is tremendously shortsighted.

Matt

 

[OceanGuy]

LFS vs. online

While I support local fish stores and use them often, as a teacher I cannot use Purchase Orders at them and often they are not the cheapest. My entire science budget for 93 kids for the whole school year is $350.00 and usually some of that gets cut in the spring due to budget constraints.

I priced a Yellow tang at a local fish store at $45. I purchased the same type yellow tang at liveaquaria.com for $1.99. I was assuming it was going to be tiny but it was larger than the one in the lfs.

I agree that we need to support lfs's and I spent hundreds of dollars of my own money in them, but sometimes they don't have either the item or the best price.

My online supplier also gives me a 14 day guarantee. I just got a shipment on Thursday and there was one fish, a yellow watchman goby that was DOA. I called and they immediately credited my credit card. I told him that the feather duster that I put in did not look to good. He said that if I called him any time within the 14 day guarantee period, he would credit that too. Not too many stores guarantee their livestock for two weeks.

Just my two cents.

Once again, I'll make the plea to please try and patronize your local fish stores first before turning to the online vendors.

The local fish stores are what make this hobby possible. It is a difficult business to run, and if we do not support them, the online vendors will be our only source of livestock and dry goods.

Matt

 

[Firedancer718]

[*]Its temperment
[*]Whether it is eating
[*]If it has a disease
[*]If it has an injury
[*]If it is of the colour variant you want
[/LIST]That just seems like poor reefkeeping to me. Most importantly, when buying from a "blind" source, you may not have any recourse should the specimen at the very best not turn out to be exactly right for you, and at the worst, introduce a disease into your tank.
-----------------------
-----------------------
I take exception to this comment and am very offended. How can you even assume to know if any hobbiest is a "poor reefkeeper"? I know we put our heart and soul into our tank. We treat these animals with the utmost respect, and care. I will never forget the comment someone made to me about a sick fish.."it's just a 5 dollar fish, flush it".

Your comment is absurd and outrageous and I feel like I deserve an apology. But maybe I'm just sensitive.
---------------------
Matt said:

I think some of these online vendors are more than reputable companies, but what do they care if they lose your business? There's a million others buying from them. On the other hand, a local source has a serious incentive to sell a reputable product. Worse than losing your business and possibly your participation in the hobby, word of mouth gets around here pretty fast. And there are plenty of local sources selling sick fish who care not about your tank. That's well known. So this isn't a black and white issue.
----------------------
----------------------
I don't think that any vendor online or LFS cares one way or another if they lose a customer here and there. Example, we gave BOTH LFS we had bad experiences with a chance to keep our business and repeat business. They both gave us the impression that we didn't matter. Had they treated us and our problem differently, I can guarantee we'd still be patronizing them.

-Stephanie

 

[Matt L.]

I don't think that any vendor online or LFS cares one way or another if they lose a customer here and there. Example, we gave BOTH LFS we had bad experiences with a chance to keep our business and repeat business. They both gave us the impression that we didn't matter. Had they treated us and our problem differently, I can guarantee we'd still be patronizing them.

I wholly agree that bad LFS experiences muddy the water in this discussion.

There are more than one LFS that I have had a negative experience at and wouldn't shop at again, even if they were the last LFS on Earth.

Matt

 

[Liam]

Sometimes i will shop for the best deal,sometimes i will shop for quality.
I have never really ordered fish online until recently.
Out of 13 fish bought on 3 seperate occasions from one LFS 12 died and what do i get when i mention it in the store "oh well".I don't know of any lfs that offers a garuantee on saltwater livestock.
Sorry but with one exception i will be ordering my fish online where i get a garuantee.
Will i be going into the LFS and paying $60 for some drygood i can get elsewhere for $20, no.

Sorry it may sound harsh but i get pretty tired of support LFS just because they are LFS.
LFS should sit back and review their business strategies because after all is'nt liveaquaria an LFS in Wisconsin

 

[dz6t]

Sorry it may sound harsh but i get pretty tired of support LFS just because they are LFS.
LFS should sit back and review their business strategies because after all is'nt liveaquaria an LFS in Wisconsin

That sums it up very well. I feel the same way.

 

[NateHanson]

I don't know of any lfs that offers a garuantee on saltwater livestock.

I don't think that's entirely true. The LFS's that I did the most business with were quite good about backing up their livestock. I don't believe it's general policy, but in many cases they do back up saltwater livestock. At one point I lost a couple heniocus butterflies after about a week, and they got me a new pair. I didn't have to pay to ship the replacements either.

 

[Liam]

I don't think that's entirely true. The LFS's that I did the most business with were quite good about backing up their livestock. I don't believe it's general policy, but in many cases they do back up saltwater livestock. At one point I lost a couple heniocus butterflies after about a week, and they got me a new pair. I didn't have to pay to ship the replacements either.

i just said "i don't know of any"

 

[NateHanson]

True enough.

 

[mchud]

i have the same problem in my buisness i have to compete against the online stores. but what i have found is that while i would love to have the sales my customers buy from online vendors. i alos understand that sometimes i cant compete with them i dont blame my customers form buying from them i would do the same. i had a talk with one of our sponsors one day while in his shop and he had a good theory on this there is nothing wrong with online purchases and alot of the times the person will only order once and continue using his store. but he wasnt going to worry about something out of his control. myself i will not purchase livestock online if i cant se it i wont purchase it. but i do get alot of my foods and salt online.

 

[Matt L.]

Sorry it may sound harsh but i get pretty tired of support LFS just because they are LFS. LFS should sit back and review their business strategies because after all is'nt liveaquaria an LFS in Wisconsin

I'm not sure what the reputable LFSs can do... It is mathematically impossible for them to offer goods at the same price as online vendors due to the economy of scale. They often have to buy goods at a price higher than an online vendor sells them at, before they add any markup for profit. I don't think running a reputable LFS is the most lucrative business.

I think the real issue here is whether people even want LFSs in the area. That might be an interesting poll to take.

If you're fine doing all your business online or driving to Wisconsin to get something, then that's cool. There's no reason to shop locally.

But one way to think of it is that when you pay extra for goods locally, you are paying to have an LFS in the area. If you never think you'd need an LFS, then that's cool, and shop wherever.

Also, one other thing someone told me was that LFSs are important for bringing new people into the hobby.

Matt

 

[merk1_99]

I have bought from LFS, online(LA), and Petco coral, fish, and clean up crews. I have experienced more losses from LFS's, than from online or Petco. I will admit any coral I have bought from a LFS has done very well. Been pricey but less holding of my breath whether it will rtn or stn.

I still continue to go to LFS's to look for livestock. And if I see something I like that looks good then I will buy it. I do not like to stock my tank heavily with fish. Right now I have a 55, soon to be 75. So I am usually looking for less popular fish. I often have to buy online because a lot of LFS's don't have that special fish I want. I will definitely buy from online any fish that is going to run $$$ because of the 14 day guarentee if possible.

As for drygoods and such I will not buy from a LFS unless it is something small. Like a can of food....JMO

 

[Liam]

I'm not sure what the reputable LFSs can do... It is mathematically impossible for them to offer goods at the same price as online vendors due to the economy of scale. They often have to buy goods at a price higher than an online vendor sells them at, before they add any markup for profit. I don't think running a reputable LFS is the most lucrative business.

I think the real issue here is whether people even want LFSs in the area. That might be an interesting poll to take.

If you're fine doing all your business online or driving to Wisconsin to get something, then that's cool. There's no reason to shop locally.

But one way to think of it is that when you pay extra for goods locally, you are paying to have an LFS in the area. If you never think you'd need an LFS, then that's cool, and shop wherever.

Also, one other thing someone told me was that LFSs are important for bringing new people into the hobby.

Matt

I think you are missing the point.
EVERY retail outlet for this hobby is a LFS somewhere.
Some are just more successful than others.