upgrading to a larger tank, help needed

[nunofs]

Hi guys,

I've been doing a lot of thinking lately about whether to keep putting more money/effort into my 15g nano, or upgrade to something a little bigger... the idea of the nano was originally a home-office tank, but now I can manage to fit a(nother) 40g breeder tank in the living room so I'm thinking of upgrading (why the 40g breeder? because I have a south-american freshwater tank that's exactly that size, and I envision putting them close, side by side, either in the wall or in a cabinet sometime in the future, and two equal sized tanks would look better... also, it's got a nice, wide footprint for rock placement and it's relatively shallow so I won't need to spend a fortune on lights). I know 40g will still be a nano-reef by many people's standards, but that's all I can plan for in the near future, so please bear with me.

Anyway, I'd like to get the tank drilled from the start and install an internal overflow so that I don't have to think about HOB overflows and the like... here's where my questions/problems begin, as I don't think I can do the holes myself (I've read a lot about drilling tanks, but don't have either the confidence or the tools to do it myself)... do you know if there's a LFS that will drill the tank? or could one of you guys who has done this before do it for me (I'm willing to pay for the drilling, of course)? The other part of this would be to install the overflow itself, which I can do myself if I find a place that will cut the glass or acrylic panes to size, and cut the teeth for the overflow... any ideas where I could get that done?

The other questions are about the placement of the holes in the tank, and how that relates to water circulation... I want to have an internal overflow, the smaller the better to save on space... either a typical corner overflow (top to bottom, hole in the bottom of the tank) or a smaller "shelf" overflow in the top center of the tank (hole in the back of the tank). Which one would work better (keep in mind that I'm trying to balance convenience, flow and space occupied inside the tank)?

That overflow would go into the combined sump/refugium, which would be a 15g tank (the 15g I'm using now for the nano) and would sit inside the stand, under the display tank. In there, I'd have the rest of the equipment (heater, skimmer), some space for macro algae and a DSB, and the return pump. Btw, suggestions for the return pump?

The other thing that I'd like to drill for would be SCWD outputs, as I'd like to avoid having powerheads in the tank... I'm thinking of two holes near the top in the back of the tank, one on each side. But I have another question related to plumbing the SCWD: can I plumb it in the return from the sump, or would it be better to have a closed loop (which would need another hole for the intake), separate from the sump? I'd like to keep this as simple as possible, but not compromise too much on what I'll be able to do with the tank.

I know it's a lot of questions, please help me get this project started... any other advice that you may have will be appreciated!

Thanks,
Nuno

 

[Ray]

Check with Scott Merrill about drilling the tank. Also if you do not want to drill a ton of holes for a closed loop you could always do one on the outside of the tank and put in a couple of spray bars like I have on my tank

 

[dedfish]

Hey Nuno,

I have a 40 breeder that I am in the setup stages of. I have been thinking alot about where I want to drill it and I think I have come to the conclusion of drilling 7 holes. 3 output holes (2 for drain to sump and 1 for closed loop) and 4 return holes (2 for closed loop and 2 for sump return). I am planning on using the small 4-way oceansmotions.com device for the closed loop and having 2 addition inputs over the top. It isn't listed on the main page but should be out in a few weeks. So that would be a total of 3 outputs and 6 returns. Should do the trick...the big question I have is where to drill the holes....that I am still working on.

 

[ScottM]

Hi guys,

40g
Anyway, I'd like to get the tank drilled from the start and install an internal overflow
The other part of this would be to install the overflow itself, which I can do myself if I find a place that will cut the glass or acrylic panes to size, and cut the teeth for the overflow

I can do that for you.
Might want to think about not doing teeth. they just get cloged over time. better off to eggcrate the inside of the overflow.

"shelf" overflow in the top center of the tank

the ideal way to skim effectively

Btw, suggestions for the return pump?

what size/brand skimmer?

The other thing that I'd like to drill for would be SCWD outputs, as I'd like to avoid having powerheads in the tank... I'm thinking of two holes near the top in the back of the tank, one on each side. But I have another question related to plumbing the SCWD: can I plumb it in the return from the sump, or would it be better to have a closed loop (which would need another hole for the intake), separate from the sump? I'd like to keep this as simple as possible, but not compromise too much on what I'll be able to do with the tank.

i'd run 2. just as a backup just in case one fails you don't loose circulation.
you also don't have to run a bigger pump on the closed loop for the added head pres.
but if its simplicity. get one.

do you already have the tank?

 

[dedfish]

Missed the part about keeping it simple as possible...I like to do things the hard way.

 

[nunofs]

I can do that for you.
Might want to think about not doing teeth. they just get cloged over time. better off to eggcrate the inside of the overflow.

Thanks, Scott, I think I'll take you up on the offer!

Can you explain a bit more how does that overflow with eggcrate works? I only know the ones with teeth, never seen one made out of eggcrate...

the ideal way to skim effectively

For a "shelf" overflow, how wide/long would you recommend the overflow should be?

what size/brand skimmer?

It's something that I put together myself based on plans I found online... it's designed for a nano, powered by a Maji-jet 400 (around 100gph), and works really well for a small tank (up to 20gal, I'd say). I will use that skimmer at first, and eventually move to something better/bigger in the future.

Here's a couple of pictures:

Never mind the messy acrylic job, it was my first ever acrylic DIY project... for scale, the whole thing is just 14" tall, 2.5" wide and 1" deep... nano skimmer

i'd run 2. just as a backup just in case one fails you don't loose circulation. you also don't have to run a bigger pump on the closed loop for the added head pres. but if its simplicity. get one.
do you already have the tank?

I'm ok with using two pumps if that makes more sense or is more safe/convenient... when I said simplicity, and also to answer dedfish's suggestions, it's not only for the original setup, it's also simplicity in maintenance and simplicity in recovering from problems, so if having 2 pumps helps in those areas, I'm all for it.

So, the idea would be to have one pump for the sump return and a separate one on the closed loop?

And no, I don't have the tank yet, but plan to buy shortly.

dedfish: your setup sounds great, I'm sure a lot of thought went into that... I've also been reading about redundant intakes/returns in case something fails/clogs... something for me to think about too. Regarding the Ocean Motions wavemaker, I think it would be a little too complex for my plans, although it sounds like a really cool device.

Thanks,
Nuno

 

[dedfish]

Nuno...the new smaller 4-way is pretty small...here is the newest pic of it posted today.
The one on the left is the heavy duty 4 way and the one on the right is the new small 4 way.

 

[nunofs]

Really cool, that new 4-way... any idea on the cost? (I browsed their site briefly but couldn't find any reference to pricing) If it's not outrageous, I might go with that instead of the SCWD...

 

[dedfish]

Dunno about the cost yet. The only info on it is in the forums. According to Paul he sys it should be out in a week or two so we'll see. My scwd stopped working today and I have to fiddle with it to make it start working. I definetly need to clean it or the pump. I like the scwd but make sure it's plumbed with unions all arround it or an easy enough way to remove it. In my haste to setup I forgot a union in a critical part and it's gonna cost me some time and effort to get the scwd off to clean.

 

[nunofs]

I think I'll wait until the new 4-way wavemaker comes out and some reviews start showing up before deciding between that and the SCWD...

That shouldn't impact the number and placement of holes, as like you I can always have two additional returns from the closed loop go over the top in the back.

Scott: can you provide some insight as to the best place to drill the holes (intake and returns), as well as their size? At this point I'm pretty set on not doing redundant holes/plumbing for the sump (ie, will have only one overflow, one return and one pump for the sump) but have decided to have a closed-loop on a separate pump as you both suggested. Any other ideas, before I can settle on the number of holes and their placement? Btw, if you could elaborate a bit on the teeth-less overflows (with eggcrate) it would be great.

Also, does anyone know where I can get a good price on a 40g breeder? I think I got the one I'm using for FW for about $80 (tank only), new... looking for a black trim tank, along with a "shiny" black stand (used is ok, if it's in good condition)

Thanks,
Nuno

 

[dedfish]

Nunofs, I hope you don't mind if I tag along. I am just about to drill my 40 breeder too. I've been thinking alot about hole placement, hole size, and number of holes that are safe to drill. Can we add to your questions and ask how many holes are safe to drill? Can I drill 3 holes for 1" bulkheads and 6 for 3/4". That a whole lot of holes?!?

As far as the tank price goes I think I paid about the same thing for mine a few years ago. I'd grab the yellow pages and start calling every place nearby. Call a couple petco's, pet smarts, the standard local reef places and find who has it in stock and how much. I got mine in Saugus at PJ's I know they usually have them in stock.

 

[dedfish]

Is this too crazy?

 

[ScottM]

Is this too crazy?
[/qoute]

not really.
a few things.
#1 decide how you plan to aquascape your tank. base your closed loop returns around your rockwork. you'll wind up with better flow
#2 your sump returns are on the bottom. you'll need to rig something so they don't back siphon. i have yet to hear of a check valve that worked 100%.
#3 you won't need 2 1" drains. 1 will do what you want. if your worried go 1 1/2. same on the CL feed.

 

[dedfish]

Only reason I was thinking 2 drains was for redundancy. Never thought about the sump returns being low, thanks. I could move the low returns to the top corners. The closed loop will provide most of the flow in the tank and will be hooked up to the new small oceans motions unit. AS for aquascaping I was basically going to go with a big mound of rock in the middle almost to the top of the tank to hide the overflow boxes.

Updated picture above.

Nunofs...what have you been thinking of doing?

 

[nunofs]

I'm not sure yet if I'm going with 2 or 4 bulkheads for the closed-loop returns (so the two lower returns for the closed-loop in the drawing may end up not getting drilled), but this is what I had in mind:

It's pretty similar to your drawing, the only difference is that the closed-loop returns are a bit higher and there's no redundancy on the sump plumbing. I was thinking of going with 3/4" bulkheads everywhere, don't know if that's going to be enough... btw, should the drains be larger than the returns?

Regarding the overflow, how do you plan to do it? I was thinking of getting 4 pieces of glass cut to size and glue them together as a box around the sump intake (with silicone), on the inside of the tank, near the top. However, I'm not sure how high in relation to the holes the overflow should be...


Scott:

if you can, please elaborate a bit on the teeth-less overflows (with eggcrate) that you mentioned early on this thread, I'm curious as to how that works.

Also, I'm planning on buying the tank this weekend, what would be a good day/time to get together so that you can help me with the drilling?

Thanks,
Nuno