How does it work? Vol 3: Closed loop

[jango]

Chuck, I agree propeller pump's are the way to go if you want pumps in your tank. There really isn't much that can touch propeller's in a closed system. But there are alternative's. I plan to eventually add one too my system on top of the closed loop.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

What's the regular retail for a pair of Tunze Streams and a controller?

Moe, here is is a 2-pump configuration with controller...note that there are different size pumps that would increase the cost....see Champion Lighting for all of the prices.

2 pump configuration and controller:
Turbelle electr. kit 4800l/h 2 Turbelle electronic 7200/2
1 Multicontroller 7094
$567.40

My 4 Turbelle Streams 6100's and the controller cost around $1300.00

Also, these pumps have DC motors and thus can be slowed down and sped up by the controller....which is much better than turning off and on. This increases the lifetime of the motors. Calfo advised me that these pumps should last for 10 years or more...so if you think about how long you will have these, they will pay for themselves in power savings .

 

[Mr. Slippery]

Is there something that you could attatch to the ends of the closed loop outputs that has a propeller like the Tunze's that would widen the flow? I don't mean like those Hydor cheapo things, but something higher end, that would perform the same function. If this was used in conjunction with a OM 4 or 8 way, how would this differ from the Tunze stream system movement, aside from the higher wattage?

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Propellers

Chuck, I agree propeller pump's are the way to go if you want pumps in your tank. There really isn't much that can touch propeller's in a closed system. But there are alternative's. I plan to eventually add one too my system on top of the closed loop.

Oh absolutely...there is always more than one way to do anything. I just had to mention the Streams because before they were recommended to me by Anthony Calfo, well, I thought there was no alternative to closed loops. For my situation, I wanted a remote fishroom with ALL of my plumbing contained in it and no pumps under my tank. The Turbelle Streams provided a solution that obviscated closd loop pumps under my tank or in the fishroom, which would have been crazy pumping over 35 feet back and forth from the fishroom to my tank.

Bec, I am sure your corals are growing wonderfully...I have heard your tank is incredible (I still am waiting for an invitation to see it!). I did not mean to imply that you can't be successful with closed loops....I just wanted to inform people about a great alternative solution.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Tunze for Life !

Is there something that you could attatch to the ends of the closed loop outputs that has a propeller like the Tunze's that would widen the flow? I don't mean like those Hydor cheapo things, but something higher end, that would perform the same function. If this was used in conjunction with a OM 4 or 8 way, how would this differ from the Tunze stream system movement, aside from the higher wattage?

I guess you could go from a small diameter return bulkead to a larger diameter inside your tank, and/or use an obstacle in front of the stream to create diffusion of the stream. One simple way to do this is to aim the return at one of the 4 sides of your tank. This flat surface acts like a "defocusing" mechanism that creates a wider flow and more random flow.

 

[NateHanson]

Is there something that you could attatch to the ends of the closed loop outputs that has a propeller like the Tunze's that would widen the flow?

I don't understand why a closed loop pump wouldn't give a soft, wide flow pattern if you just make the outlets wide enough to allow all that flow to slow down before it hits the tank. I would think you could put a 2" outlet for the last 6" or something.

 

[jango]

Eductors

 

[Matt L.]

Flow is flow?

I don't understand why a closed loop pump wouldn't give a soft, wide flow pattern if you just make the outlets wide enough to allow all that flow to slow down before it hits the tank...

I agree. If you match the flow and diameter of a Tunze, then you theoretically could obtain the same effect.

Matt

 

[NateHanson]

To be certain it wouldn't be as efficient as the Tunze, but there isn't necessarily a qualitative difference in the flow produced by the two systems.

 

[Matt L.]

No One Caught My Errors

...Thus, for a 300gpm flow (roughly one quarter of a T4 pump), you would need a 3/4-in. line, which is what I have used four-fold. Using a 3/4-in. line leads to a theoretical velocity of 7.38 ft/sec, but...

1. A T4 Velocty Pump puts out 1225gph, not 1225gpm!
2. The velocity in my 3/4-in. lines is 3.63ft/sec not 7.38ft/sec. I kinew something didn't seem right o) because I designed the lines to run at the low end of the range.

Please pardon these errors,

Matt

 

[jango]

Matt I don't think you could. All you need to spread flow like that are Eductors. Although even with eductors spreading out the flow it won't go as broad as a tunze.

 

[NateHanson]

Why would the flow be any different if you increased the diameter of a closed loop outlet so the linear velocity is the same as a Tunze?

 

[Matt L.]

Pipe Diameter Sizing Guidelines

Please find below the recommended flow rates for each standard line size based on the true inner diameter of Schedule 40 pipe.

Use This Diameter:       Between These Flows:      And for no more than:
         0.5                 170 - 284                       398
         0.75                299 - 499                       698
         1                   485 - 808                       1131
         1.25                839 - 1398                      1958
         1.5                 1142 - 1904                     2665
         2                   1882 - 3137                     4392
         3                   4147 - 6912                     9677
         4                   7142 - 11903                    16664
         6                   16207 - 27012                   37817

Notes:
1. All flows are in gallons per hour (gph)
2. These recommended flow values are for closed channel flow only! These do not apply to your D'Urso standpipe or any other open channel return.

Matt

 

[jango]

Flow is through the pipe or tunze isn't the issue it's the distribution of the flow when it exit's the pipe or tunze. You can't get the same effect without the propeller the way it spin's the water out in a broad sweep across the tank. Water exiting a tube want's to come strait out.

 

[Matt L.]

You can't get the same effect without the propeller the way it spin's the water out in a broad sweep across the tank. Water exiting a tube want's to come strait out.

Again, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree, but without testing, I can't prove it one way or the other! Its just that my intuition from a former life as a hydraulics engineer tells me that flow is flow, and that if you match the diameter and velocity, the effects should be the same! Right... I do agree that you might need vanes on the effluent to speread the flow in the same pattern, or use a larger diameter effluent.

Now to others, I do used a closed loop. I do not have sufficient circulation for SPS. I have been planning on adding a Tunze as well. Yet I do not believe that Tunze's are magic; that they somehow generate a flow distribution that simply cannot be recreated by conventional means,

Matt

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

jango is correct, the distribution of the water flow out of a "pipe" or other opening is mainly governed by laminar flow, or with much oversimplification, the water moves in a straight line. There is some turbulent flow at the edges of the opening that helps broaden the flow, but mainly it is laminar flow. So you could think of the flow pattern as being a cylinder whose radius increases slightly as the distance from the source increases. The only broadening factors here is the friction of the surrounding water producing drag on the moving water which tends to "ruin" the laminar flow pattern.

The distribution of the water flow out of a propeller is less governed by laminar flow (although some laminar flow exists around the axis of the propeller). Instead the propeller causes the water to swirl in a circular fashion around the propeller's axis as well as pushing it forward, which results in more of a "corkscrew" or "helix" flow pattern. In effect, the propeller produces more of a broad flow pattern by pushing the water out from the axis of the propeller as well as pushing the water forward.

 

[Chuck Spyropulos]

Again, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree, but without testing, I can't prove it one way or the other! Its just that my intuition from a former life as a hydraulics engineer tells me that flow is flow, and that if you match the diameter and velocity, the effects should be the same! Right... I do agree that you might need vanes on the effluent to speread the flow in the same pattern, or use a larger diameter effluent.

Now to others, I do used a closed loop. I do not have sufficient circulation for SPS. I have been planning on adding a Tunze as well. Yet I do not believe that Tunze's are magic; that they somehow generate a flow distribution that simply cannot be recreated by conventional means,

Matt

There is no magic here...just different mechanisms of pushing the water around. I bet you could achieve some success by placing objectes in front of the water source like a cone whose vertex is pointed towards the water source. The cone would "spoil" the flow pattern by reducing laminar flow and result in a broader flow pattern.

 

[Chris A.]

Coildn`t you just get a small plastic propeller and add it to the output of the closed loop and have the same effects as the tunze?

 

[jango]

Coildn`t you just get a small plastic propeller and add it to the output of the closed loop and have the same effects as the tunze?

You could get close, Richard Harker did some study's on this with power head's with some really good results.

 

[jango]

Richard Harker's article on propeller pump's.