So I understand i'm fairly new to the trade technically, but correct me if i'm wrong, if "old tank syndrome" exists, then why not every 5 years just rebuild the tank? Maybe take out half the live rock, dry it, cycle it, and put other LR in its place?
And if there is junk in the sand bed, well I know first hand stirring a sand bed can release nitrates and such into the water column, so essentially I suppose the sand could get "too saturated" if you will.
But sand beds are such a vague term because no two sand beds are alike.
There's deep sand beds, shallow ones, oolite, aragonite, crushed coral, etc etc and each will react different.
It's my understanding that fine sand will not capture as much waste in it than crushed coral since it's so tightly packed, and also my understanding that aragonite never stops working at maintaining a nitrogen cycle and helping with pH and magnesium.
So correct me if i'm wrong, but a tank with a DSB of aragonite, and LR that gets replaced partially every 4 or 5 years, and running the tank maybe one month with GFO and GAC then the next month with a skimmer, and switching back and forth, along with weekly 20% waterchanges, could and should make a tank that could survive inevitably?
...Or did I just come up with a nice story that isn't true? Lol cuz that's certainly a possibility.
Skimming doesn't remove the efficiency of GFO and GAC? I know a lot of things chemically say not to use with a skimmer because it will remove it from the water. Then again GAC and GFO isn't technically in the water column anyways...
one of the subjects I brought to light on our journeys to meetings.....(sometimes as I stated above lasting upwards of 2 hours)
So we had what I thought....was a great discussion of having multiple skimmers in ur stock that could be switched out on a system every say 3-4 months... (that is different forms of foam fractioning.. )
Back then some thought using two skimmer at the same time would do double the filtering when in fact they do the opposite.....They work against eachother & produce less skimming effect. That is due to the surface tension being effected by running two skimmers simultaniously. one knocks the other foam down & visa versa...(kinda like putting ur hand in the tank!!!)
IE for the less experienced trolling this side:
Becket skimmers, downdraft skimmers & needle wheel skimmers..... All produce a different foam which in turn would remove a different form of organics... from heavier to lighter..... Seen this first hand on an experiment by accident at a LFS...they were running PM bullet skimmers in their shop....after three years...the skimmers were like they were not even working...(with valves clean & pumps clean....)
So by accident... they brought in & stocked, cheap, turbo floaters skimmers because they were a less expensive line & it would cater to the beginner.
They decided to hook one up as a display unit to show the customers on one tank.....
It was pulling so much junk out of the tank it was setup on & they were amazed.....They switched all the systems to these skimmers but one in the store......well....needlesss to say...it was short lived......cause once the skimmer pulled out the organics it was capable of removing thru it's form of fractioning....it stopped producing skimmate.....& the tanks took a huge dump.... (but it took quite some time for the organics to build up.....)
They eventually switched back & removed the TF skimmers....
something to ponder....surface tension created in the skimmer changes with different forms of fractioning.....
Different forms of fractioning = different forms of organics being removed!!
so U think this should b split to another discussion?
I think we can do some hard science experiment regarding the theory brough up by Aquaman.
If skimmate from different types of skimmer on the SAME tank can be obtained, I can arrange them to be tested by LC-MS (need to collect donation for a small fee to pay a commercial lab).
I think we can do some hard science experiment regarding the theory brough up by Aquaman.
If skimmate from different types of skimmer on the SAME tank can be obtained, I can arrange them to be tested by LC-MS (need to collect donation for a small fee to pay a commercial lab).
If you ran them on the same tank there are other factors that could confound the results. If you ran them, one after the other, for example, the first could just remove things before the second was able to. (i.e. Maybe there is a preferential order of removal, for certain compounds by all skimmers.) If you ran them together, perhaps the flow pattern for example, could favor one before the other. So, I think you would need to do something along the lines of taking a large water sample and splitting it up into smaller tanks. Then running the skimmers separately in the separate tanks. Could be as simple as mixing up saltwater in a trash can adding mix of foods, waiting a few days and transferring the water to separate small aquariums with the skimmers. If the could see chipping in for such an experiment though depending on price and other factors such as sensitivity/specificity of the test.
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If you ran two different types of skimmers on the same tank at the same time that WOULD confound the results.
Surface tension would b compromised running two types of skimmers simultaniously... each one would work against eachother & knock the foam production down....pretty much rendering ur test of " accuracy" useless....
r u not reading the text I typed above? (not copy & paste I may add) This is from experience learned personally thru a LFS...I was there to witness this personally....I didn't read it online!!!
Can I ask u a question off topic? (let me state this before I do...... that this questions isn't meant to insult u)
Where U on a Debate team in college or high school?
Last time Dong tested skimmate, it was a taste test :: http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/showthread.php?29013
I hope it will be more scientific this time around
If you ran them on the same tank there are other factors that could confound the results. If you ran them, one after the other, for example, the first could just remove things before the second was able to. (i.e. Maybe there is a preferential order of removal, for certain compounds by all skimmers.) If you ran them together, perhaps the flow pattern for example, could favor one before the other. So, I think you would need to do something along the lines of taking a large water sample and splitting it up into smaller tanks. Then running the skimmers separately in the separate tanks. Could be as simple as mixing up saltwater in a trash can adding mix of foods, waiting a few days and transferring the water to separate small aquariums with the skimmers. If the could see chipping in for such an experiment though depending on price and other factors such as sensitivity/specificity of the test.
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You might discover the secrets that skimmer manufacturers don't want you to know. There was a chemist on RC that tried to organise a similiar test. Only one skimmer company out of the dozen or so he contacted agreed to supply a loaner to the lab, all the others declined. It would be interesting to see how much "gunk" was in the skimmate opposed to the amount of living creatures that the skimmer pulls out. I used to commercial fish a bit years ago, and I can tell you rotting fish smell alot worse than fish poop.....
I dont know if you can come that the conclusion that the skimmer companies dont want you to know which method works at exporting which organics but rather having a "test" (out of their control) that could negatively effect their bottom line with a poor performance by their product. There is too much uncertainty and risk involved that outways the reward...especially if you as the company are giving the researcher the instrument to your possible demise.