OP
OP
pallobi
Neal
agreed, and agreed... the trick is finding one... they are few and far between...
are LFS's necessary for the hobby, or not???
- Thread starter pallobi
- Start date
agreed, and agreed... the trick is finding one... they are few and far between...
OP
OP
pallobi
Neal
I'm not saying i never used them before... However, I got started in this hobby through a friend/hobbyists I worked with in Southern California when i lived there... he brought me to a SoCal Reefers meeting, from there I met a bunch of people... and collectively they all got me into it, and got me setup and going... I was very fortunate, and clearly this is not the normal... as i got started into the hobby in the coming months, i started to visit a few places... I found alot of the info, etc that the LFS were giving me, did not gel with what my buddy and new buddy's were telling me... the LFS, a few of them, were giving me crappy advice and trying to sell me nonsense, and jus overall about everything, etc... however, at that point, and for the next 3 years, i would buy my fish from the LFS's that I found were what i felt, up to par...
Thankfully, i had some great people, and was actually in a club, and an incredibly large and great one at that, before i even got started... they are also the ones who turned me on to some of the online vendors for dry goods... I now buy all my dry goods online, as i jus wont find it cheaper anywhere else, i think we can all agree to that... I mean, i know some places will match price, but considering where I am located, and the fact that i can always find free shipping, its not worth spending the 20 to 30 dollars in gas to get there and back... for all intensive purposes, im poor, so i have to get things the most cost effective way i can... with that said, i dont skimp on product quality either and i dont believe in lower quality products, im jus not gonna pay more, when i can pay less... also, pretty much all my fish i currently have are rescues/adoptions, or purchased from other hobbyists... and every coral i have is aquacultured by other hobbyists, and Greg at Cultivated Reef, and a few people like him...
I guess I lied when i said i dont use LFS's at all... on occasion, when meeting up for trades and whatnot with my fellow hobbyist, i may grab some frozen mysis while I am at the LFS for said meetups... And also, so everyone doesnt think I am such a hater, I do talk up the very good stores i have found myself to some of my fellow hobbyists... i dont jus show up at LFS's to degrade them or judge them... I went to Skiptons this weekend and brought a CTARS buddy who had never been, and wanted to go cuz i recommended he check them out as he loves a good LFS, I can guarantee he will be back to spend money...
Out of the literally, probably close to 100 LFS's i have been to in numerous states, and both sides of the country, I have 4 amongst them all, that I would actually recommend to anyone... 2 there on the west coast, and 2 here on the eastcoast... and jus to note, I have not been to Jay's in Salem, NH, but i have heard good things and wouldnt mind checking it out... but honestly, for all that I have been too, those are not good percentatges...
I really wish i would have worded my opening post differently, however, all i can do is apoligize for its overzelous'ness, and move on...
every person who has chimed in has disagreed with me, which is 100% OK, but if i dont use the LFS, does not mean i do not love or cherish this hobby any less or more than the next person... barring any mishap with living conditions or health, I will be in this hobby heavily, for the rest of my life... whether i choose to support certain venues or not... and I hope everyone else who loves this hobby as much as i do, gets to stay in it for as long as possible as well...
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Most LFS are totally worthless because they dont give you correct info. Then there are the ones where you know you can go for good information and they wont sell you some BS just to sell a product. I visit the same store over and over because I know the owner is a reliable source of info and product prices are fair
OP
OP
pallobi
Neal
I understand this point... however, it wouldnt be too hard for an hobby shop of any kind to get in on the internet business world as well, and adapt, to help their own cause... if their business is slowing or failing, its up to them to adapt to the economic times and world of technology... its how good business' survive these days...
and good advice is free, and should be... especially in a HOBBY... its not like im looking for the time of some business advisor with a PhD and trying to set up my future, that is something someone pays for... or the advice of a therapist... its a hobby that shouldnt be business orientated as far as getting solid, helpful advice and guidance... of course everyone in this hobby has to pay for the supplies, livestock, and its maintenance etc... but for someone jus seeking advice, they should not have to pay to get good advice...
and we here who are paid members, all pay and support the platform (being this forum and club) for the source, of all this great advice, that gets put out here daily... so i think your last statement, is a bit unfair... jus cuz i dont use LFS persay, doesnt mean i "dont support the source"... of course u didnt point me out, but saying something like that, given my view on this topic, i felt the need to chime in about your statement...
OP
OP
pallobi
Neal
again, and as Jim highlights here, the truely good, trustworthy, and not so greedy ones, are few and far between...
Conlius
Fish Eater!
I rarely go to a LFS to get information. I go there to see if they have a healthy specimen of the type of fish/coral i want to buy. Maybe that is just because I like to do my homework prior to my purchase. I understand some people believe that going to the LFS and asking questions IS doing their homework but I just don't see it the same way. However, that is NOT anything against LFS as it's exactly the same with online stores.
It's kinda like microsoft writing a review on windows...of course it is going to be awesome...and guess what? If you buy now you can get a deal!!! Basically, you are asking a sales & marketing person whether or not you should buy their product (read: they sold their soul a long time ago...jk!). Honestly, the people in local and retail stores DO give some good advice (depending on the store!). But the reality: they don't know every little detail about your tank OR how much information you even know about the hobby so you can't expect them to give you the exact answer you were looking for. So it's up to you to become the expert.
All in all, I believe LFS are GREAT for seeing before you purchase. They are also GREAT for solving time sensitive issues without ridiculous overnight shipping costs (read: my return pump just blew...oops!). Online retailers don't really have a leg up in that respect. I like to keep my fish buying to the LFS (visual check on health of the fish), my coral buying to local reefers (If I can trust their tank environment), and my dry goods to online retailers (when items are on sale or have free shipping!).
In final: TRUST but VERIFY. Trust what you read online (or in books) about the product you are looking to purchase (if from a reliable source) then verify with an actual person (online retail worker, LFS employee, reefer society, etc), then buy!
It's kinda like microsoft writing a review on windows...of course it is going to be awesome...and guess what? If you buy now you can get a deal!!! Basically, you are asking a sales & marketing person whether or not you should buy their product (read: they sold their soul a long time ago...jk!). Honestly, the people in local and retail stores DO give some good advice (depending on the store!). But the reality: they don't know every little detail about your tank OR how much information you even know about the hobby so you can't expect them to give you the exact answer you were looking for. So it's up to you to become the expert.
All in all, I believe LFS are GREAT for seeing before you purchase. They are also GREAT for solving time sensitive issues without ridiculous overnight shipping costs (read: my return pump just blew...oops!). Online retailers don't really have a leg up in that respect. I like to keep my fish buying to the LFS (visual check on health of the fish), my coral buying to local reefers (If I can trust their tank environment), and my dry goods to online retailers (when items are on sale or have free shipping!).
In final: TRUST but VERIFY. Trust what you read online (or in books) about the product you are looking to purchase (if from a reliable source) then verify with an actual person (online retail worker, LFS employee, reefer society, etc), then buy!
I agree with that as well.
If you're going to the LFS looking for advice, IMO you're in the wrong hobby. With something as complicated and diverse as reefkeeping, it's our responsibility to educate ourselves and not to rely on any one source of info. There are LFS workers/owners that I do take seriously, but without doing quite a lot of homework (years) a person isn't even in a position to make an informed decision about who they can listen to....
That said, LFS's provide an invaluable service to the hobby IMO.
-NOW factor, when something critical breaks and needs replacing today.
-WOW factor, actually seeing livestock in person before buying. WYSIWG but without photoshop
-HUMAN factor, having someone to have a conversation with about an idea or problem solving, or just to shoot the stuff with.
-IN ACTION factor, what does that new 14K lamp really look like in action. Does that new LED fixture really bring out the "pop".
I still go out of my way to try to support what I consider good LFS's, but having been at this for a while I'm not spending much anywhere, so I regret that I don't end up supporting the LFSs more.
If you're going to the LFS looking for advice, IMO you're in the wrong hobby. With something as complicated and diverse as reefkeeping, it's our responsibility to educate ourselves and not to rely on any one source of info. There are LFS workers/owners that I do take seriously, but without doing quite a lot of homework (years) a person isn't even in a position to make an informed decision about who they can listen to....
That said, LFS's provide an invaluable service to the hobby IMO.
-NOW factor, when something critical breaks and needs replacing today.
-WOW factor, actually seeing livestock in person before buying. WYSIWG but without photoshop
-HUMAN factor, having someone to have a conversation with about an idea or problem solving, or just to shoot the stuff with.
-IN ACTION factor, what does that new 14K lamp really look like in action. Does that new LED fixture really bring out the "pop".
I still go out of my way to try to support what I consider good LFS's, but having been at this for a while I'm not spending much anywhere, so I regret that I don't end up supporting the LFSs more.
Bobbofin
Non-member
I couldn't agree more. Each of us runs our systems in our own way. What might sucessful for one person might not be for another but there is still the basics. I started out in the hobby over twenty years ago with a 55 gallon fish only system. I moved up to mushrooms, zoas, palys and softies and eventually to a mixed reef about 12 years ago. A lot of the info I gained was from mistakes, advice from many sources and lots and lots of reading of books and online resources. There are two personal resources I ask advice from. The first is B at Skipton's. He has sold me thousands of dollars of equipment but also gave me advice NOT to buy things and waste my money. The other is Jay up at Plymouth Pet, exit 26 on Rt 93. Jay is much like B. He'll give you advice, not try to sell you stuff for the sake of a sale and is truly interested in you being successful which in the long run is better than a quick sale.
reefkeeper2
Well-Known Member
I can say from the perspective of someone who has been in the hobby a very long time that LFS have improved greatly over the years. There was a time I would never ask anyone at a LFS any question whatever. Now I really enjoy talking to, picking the brains of, and talking the ears off of many of the local owners. I have a good time looking at the livestock and I try to buy something at all of them to support them. Once upon a time there was only Debbys Petland and Paradise Gardens!
The_Godfreys
Non-member
Hehe, I remember way back (before I started salt) when I first walked into the Paradise Gardens salt water room and saw a tank full of huge aptasia and commented how amazing they were. At least they had the decency to explain to me that they were a pest and the tank was overgrown.
Moe_K
Stabbed by Foulke
this is solely an opinion based discussion on how each person feels about the state of the hobby today, and as it stands with LFS's, and Online vending... and how it effects their hobby... i have many great places, as well as poor... good or bad, i jus choose not to use LFS's myself...
again, i appreciate everyone's insight and input into the discussion, and open ended debate
Some great times I've had in the hobby are when two, three or four reefers from the same neck of the woods jump into a car and head to an LFS.
I loved it when the MetroWest gang would invade Skiptons or CRA down in Seekonk. Less gasoline, good deals, everyone psyched up, and all the new stuff purchased!
OP
OP
pallobi
Neal
i like the way you think my friend
i could not agree more... too many times people are ready to blame others or trust others... that is wrong... it all falls on yourself, and no one else...
educate yourself first and foremost! most dont do that though...
Bobbofin
Non-member
I think the premise of this thread is ludicrous. Our hobby would not be where it is without LFS. I must admit that in this internet age I could do an entire tank without stepping foot into a LFS but is that actually a reasonable reality or a pipe dream. If there was no LFS we would be screwed when an emergency arises. A pump or heater even from Petco or PetsMart will get you by until you can get a better one. I've actually received good advice at some LFS, r/c hobby stores so painting all store workers/owners with a wide brush is rather unfair. I think that those who think along these lines should not go to any LFS under any circumstances, take any advice from knowledge LFS owners/workers and never travel two hours to a Metro Boston LFS then ignore the owner especially after posting this. More over, if you have an emergency don't go to any LFS, Petco or PetsMart....let your tank rot and die like you wouldn't mind happening to the LFS, the owner and his/her employees.
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OP
OP
pallobi
Neal
those are pretty harsh words to be putting in someone's mouth... it doesnt take a genius to know your words are directed at me... i have never said anything about "not minding" anyone fail at anything...
everyone has their opinion and options to how they go about the hobby, and what they use for sources... it is not a "pipe dream" for someone to not need LFS's... I dont use them at all, and my hobby is at an all time high, and seems to be having the greatest success i have had to this point... this does not mean i do not feel they are important to the overall hobby or its success, or i dont appreciate the sponsorship some bring to this great club as their support, especially here, is very much needed, and appreciated...
I am the one who traveled to "metro boston" and didnt introduce myself, however i dont know who the gentleman is... but B also did not introduce himself to me either and clearly he recognized me... I see with your comments, he has mentioned this occurance to others since then... a friend of mine who visited the store with me that day, as he has never been, returned not too long after, and made a solid purchase... so it appears in some way, i did contribute to their livelihood, per my recomendation... Like previously stated, B has a great store, and something really good goin on there... and of course, i wish him the best, as well as any other quality LFS's out there...
my thoughts are not ludicrous, and are actually shared by quite a few peeps who jus havent chimed in... im sorry you seem bothered by my thread, and comments... but they are my opinions, and i am entitled to them, as you are to yours... we are both more than welcome to share them here from what i understand, as long as we keep it polite and respectful... I have already apoligized for my opening post and its overzelous'ness, as i admit, i was a little emotionally charged at that point, but what else can i do at this point other than apoligize??? to which i have already done...
I feel how I feel about them, and they will certainly not fail without my business, nor do i wish them to fail, or see anyones lively hood go down the drain... my life has had some serious ups and downs, and i dont wish the same on anyone else... for you to say something like "let your tank rot and die, etc" is a little bit much, dont you think? i would never wish that upon you or anyone, regardless if you agree with my thoughts or not... plz try and give the same respect, to those who dont view everything as you do...
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delta
Impatient Reefer
From the stand point of what this group was built on it is ludicrous to think LFS are not needed. You need to understand where we came from to understand why the new mind set has annihilated many small reef groups. It is a community and the community supports itself by supporting each other. However, and this is a huge issue well beyond reef groups and LFS's, people are just looking for the best price and easiest way to do things regardless of any future repercussions. IF you only buy on line then eventually there will be no LFS's and far less people starting on a impulse buy. With less community type activities like LFS's tours and things like that within the community you see a rise in prices as the community shrinks. funny we have seen the exact same issue with in our community as we have across the world but everyone overlooks it.
Now much of this is not malicious many just don;t see it for what it is, they think hey this works for me everyone is doing it. Well as the LFS's fall, the reef groups fall and even the internet stores fall so goes the hobby. And with everyone one person that leaves the hobby the probability that another job in the industry is lost grows. They are all a part of the community saying anyone isn't needed is a gross oversight. used to be for everyone that got out 5-10 came in behind them not so anymore, not even close.
So if you value your community you will support it. this isn't directed at one one personally as these are my thoughts on this as a whole as I do believes Bob's post is the same but it paints a picture we are all dealing whether we have a tank or not.
Make sure if you are going to bring up a topic you remember people will disagree it is not personal they have different experiences and beliefs, so have an open mind as they may see something you don't and vis versus
Moe post is short and sweet but it is also the frame work for what the BRS was built on. Moe is a founding member and former President of the BRS
Now much of this is not malicious many just don;t see it for what it is, they think hey this works for me everyone is doing it. Well as the LFS's fall, the reef groups fall and even the internet stores fall so goes the hobby. And with everyone one person that leaves the hobby the probability that another job in the industry is lost grows. They are all a part of the community saying anyone isn't needed is a gross oversight. used to be for everyone that got out 5-10 came in behind them not so anymore, not even close.
So if you value your community you will support it. this isn't directed at one one personally as these are my thoughts on this as a whole as I do believes Bob's post is the same but it paints a picture we are all dealing whether we have a tank or not.
Make sure if you are going to bring up a topic you remember people will disagree it is not personal they have different experiences and beliefs, so have an open mind as they may see something you don't and vis versus
Moe post is short and sweet but it is also the frame work for what the BRS was built on. Moe is a founding member and former President of the BRS
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Bobbofin
Non-member
Well said Greg! I get along with several owners of LFS very well to the point where I go buy coffee and I hang out.
Two of them I would ask advice from the others I would not. In all my livestock purchases I closely examine the specimen and decide if I wish to buy it. I haven't purchased live stock online in over ten years because I want to "see" it up close. I do buy dry goods once in a while online. All my big purchases; tank, stand, skimmer, lights, return pumps, etc have been with a LFS because I want personal service after the sale.
Several of the owners of LFS have commented to me with anger regarding this thread. These are the very sponsors that support the club and pay BRS big bucks yearly to be on here. The feedback forum is for our experience with individual LFS. Being over zealous, stereotyping all LFS and putting them into one basket is just not cool. If you are going to trash LFS on here as a group then don't go to one ever no matter what the emergency. If I trashed someone on Facebook I certainly wouldn't go to their house afterwards.
If more and more people chose to purchase most of their purchases online most of the LFS we know would close, our hobby and our club would not attract newbies and after many years it would dry on the vine. I've seen the same thing happen with hobby shops.
I do r/c helicopters, planes and cars. Tower Hobbies, Horizon Hobby and other online retailers have murdered the local shops and put them out of business. There is basically only Hobbytown USA stores around which are franschise stores of Horizon Hobby. 90% of the hobby stores have closed. If I wish to have locally availablity of parts I have to buy Blade helis, Park Zone planes or Losi cars from www.horizonhobby.com or from a local Hobbytown USA. If I buy another make I'll have to order parts online and wait a week or so. Fewer people are coming into the r/c hobby because of this. Many flying clubs have shutdown. So because of our zeal for low prices we have murdered the local retailer and caused the decline of the r/c hobby. We are basically commiting slow suicide to our hobby by putting the local retailer out of business. We all want low prices and have a Walmart mentality, if it's cheap it's for me.
We have to consider what if the same thing happened to our aquarium hobby/stores/clubs that has happened to the r/c hobby/stores/clubs???? Think about it!
Two of them I would ask advice from the others I would not. In all my livestock purchases I closely examine the specimen and decide if I wish to buy it. I haven't purchased live stock online in over ten years because I want to "see" it up close. I do buy dry goods once in a while online. All my big purchases; tank, stand, skimmer, lights, return pumps, etc have been with a LFS because I want personal service after the sale.
Several of the owners of LFS have commented to me with anger regarding this thread. These are the very sponsors that support the club and pay BRS big bucks yearly to be on here. The feedback forum is for our experience with individual LFS. Being over zealous, stereotyping all LFS and putting them into one basket is just not cool. If you are going to trash LFS on here as a group then don't go to one ever no matter what the emergency. If I trashed someone on Facebook I certainly wouldn't go to their house afterwards.
If more and more people chose to purchase most of their purchases online most of the LFS we know would close, our hobby and our club would not attract newbies and after many years it would dry on the vine. I've seen the same thing happen with hobby shops.
I do r/c helicopters, planes and cars. Tower Hobbies, Horizon Hobby and other online retailers have murdered the local shops and put them out of business. There is basically only Hobbytown USA stores around which are franschise stores of Horizon Hobby. 90% of the hobby stores have closed. If I wish to have locally availablity of parts I have to buy Blade helis, Park Zone planes or Losi cars from www.horizonhobby.com or from a local Hobbytown USA. If I buy another make I'll have to order parts online and wait a week or so. Fewer people are coming into the r/c hobby because of this. Many flying clubs have shutdown. So because of our zeal for low prices we have murdered the local retailer and caused the decline of the r/c hobby. We are basically commiting slow suicide to our hobby by putting the local retailer out of business. We all want low prices and have a Walmart mentality, if it's cheap it's for me.
We have to consider what if the same thing happened to our aquarium hobby/stores/clubs that has happened to the r/c hobby/stores/clubs???? Think about it!
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Bobbofin
Non-member
Pallobi,
You start off saying that you want to have civil convo, that some of our sponsors are LFS then in the next sentence throw 95% of them under the bus. Which 5% are the LFS that are good by your standards? Perhaps you can give us a list? How do you think the BRS sponsors feel about this thread? They are ticked, especially when they pay thousands of dollars to BRS yearly. These are very polarizing statements you made that you can't take back made towards people with business' and families that challenge their very livelihood and future. Where your picture was in your avatar for a while don't expect a welcoming commitee when you show up at their LFS.
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