Got Corals from Nate?

[NateHanson]

A couple of points IMO / IME...

1) Nate, the person who says they got AEFW's from you... are you positive they have not added anything to their system before or after what they got from you? They might have already had them in their in a low population before they got your frags.

No Way to know Mark. Sounds like he's traded things with others since last fall, and I think it's entirely possible that many others are trading these than know they have them. So people like Casey and this guy that alerted me to his infestation certainly could have gotten them from me, or maybe they got it from another trade.

I'm not really arguing about whether people got them from me because I don't think it changes anything. People who know they have them need to treat their tanks. People who traded with me and others in the last year should also treat their corals, imo. Way more people have these than know, so I don't think folks should have a false sense of security from the fact that they don't have corals from me or Chuck. I really think these things are all over the place, and people who find them will tend to think they got it somehow from the small handful of people who have made it public that the worms are in their tanks (and maybe they did), but there are positively many more sources of this pest.


Derek, you asked if you're doomed because you traded with me - I don't think so, but I still think you should either tell everyone you trade with to treat your frags, or you treat your outgoing frags. Better yet, QT your corals for a couple weeks and treat them with Levamisole. I don't think you should necessarily do this because you traded with me - I think any active traders should treat their corals now, if we're to get beyond this pest. Otherwise it's just going to keep going around for a couple years. (of course this is easy for me to recommend because I don't have corals to QT - I understand how difficult this could be for some).


Nate

 

[dz6t]

Your comment about everything dieing. .

Let me make myself clear how coral die (don't take it seriously)

1. Accidental Killed by crushing during aqua-scaping and re-scaping and re-re-scaping.

2. Killed by chemical over dosed.

3. Killed by chemical (again) because the reefer has no idea what the chemical actually do.

4. Killed during moving

5. Killed by a failed auto-top off system

the list go on and on,

finally, got eatten by flat worm.

Man, it sucks to be coral, worse if you were an arco.

 

[Yaktop]

What's with the attitude? I never said or inferred: "I might as well because others do". You are the one who made that quote in your reply. What I DID say, in response to another post, was that we should hold the retailers to the same high standard as fellow reefers. Your reply doesn't even relate the point I made in the post you replied to.

man do you get defensive.........wasnt an attitude towards you but the damm people who have issues and dont declare; or those who do declare to newbies who just dont understand yet.

Chuck I think he was just saying the I might as well attitude in general but not directing it at you.

exactly

...........while he was preaching.

now thats the pot (could be a joke here somewhere) calling the kettle black. By the way, didnt need to get straight. I'd rather not be the Acro Flatworm, red bug, flatworm expert anyway. glad you have that honor.

 

[NateHanson]

Ok, just a warning to EVERYONE - this is a useful thread. Let's make sure that personal arguments don't get started. (I'm not pointing fingers or laying blame, just trying to preempt a wreck).

Thanks, Nate

 

[gurumasta]

Derek, you asked if you're doomed because you traded with me - I don't think so, but I still think you should either tell everyone you trade with to treat your frags, or you treat your outgoing frags. Better yet, QT your corals for a couple weeks and treat them with Levamisole. I don't think you should necessarily do this because you traded with me - I think any active traders should treat their corals now, if we're to get beyond this pest. Otherwise it's just going to keep going around for a couple years. (of course this is easy for me to recommend because I don't have corals to QT - I understand how difficult this could be for some).


Nate

im not completely sold that i have them. i know its very possible, but im yet to see solid proof. ill check daily over the next couple months and act when i see the first sign of flatworms if any. it will take time and money to set up a seperate treatment tank, and im not scared enough to act immediately.

am i being stubborn here? or realistic?

 

[clamm]

unlikely but no one really knows.

Casey, on another note, it is possible that you brought the FWs into your system when you put things from another members tank into your tank to hold (clams, LPS, and softies) when that person gave you stuff to hold.

 

[RichConley]

Man, you can't tell ? My bad.

Just being sarcastic.

Everyone, please relax..

It's the accent Dong.

 

[NateHanson]

im not completely sold that i have them. i know its very possible, but im yet to see solid proof. ill check daily over the next couple months and act when i see the first sign of flatworms if any. it will take time and money to set up a seperate treatment tank, and im not scared enough to act immediately.

am i being stubborn here? or realistic?

I can understand your desire, and I think it's fine, but I'd dip all outgoing frags, or at least make it clear to people your trading with that you were exposed to the worms. Since it seems possible that these can exist at low levels undetected for long periods, I think we need to be careful with the wait-and-see approach.

Nate

 

[Reef55]

No Way to know Mark. Sounds like he's traded things with others since last fall, and I think it's entirely possible that many others are trading these than know they have them. So people like Casey and this guy that alerted me to his infestation certainly could have gotten them from me, or maybe they got it from another trade.

I'm not really arguing about whether people got them from me because I don't think it changes anything.
Nate

Actually Nate, I think it changes quite a bit. From all the reading I have done and through my own experience, these AEFW's have all indication of having a short life span if they do not have a food source. Additionally, marine flatworms reproduce at a very fast rate. Because of this, I think it is highly unlikely that these AEFW's have a slow buildup or dormant stage. A single flatworms can lay hundreds of eggs all by itself, as they can self-fertilize.

So, I think it is very important because if this is a "documented" case of a system that had no other additions before or after getting frags from you, and 6 months later they suddenly have flatworms, then these AEFW's are in a totally different taxonomy of marine flatworm than I have found information on. I have read up on the life cycle of every egg-laying marine flatworm family I could find, and none of them in a remotely tropical climate had the ability to go dormant (especially for such a long period of time).

 

[NateHanson]

That's a good point Mark, but I guess what I'm saying is that there's no point in arguing about it because there's really no way to know where they came from. You're certainly right that if we could confirm the source it would be significant, but that seems impossible.

I think Chuck's experience also supports the argument that these things can exist at nearly undetectable levels for months. He did his blasting for months, and then didn't see them for a couple months, only to have them subsequently return. (Chuck, I'm just going by my recollection of your experience, so feel free to give a better account if I'm misrepresenting your history.)

So basically, I think there is anectodal evidence for slow-developing infestations. Bad news indeed if it turns out to be true.

Nate

 

[Greg Hiller]

>So basically, I think there is anectodal evidence for slow-developing infestations. Bad news indeed if it turns out to be true<

I would hypothesize that it would depend upon many things. If a tank has a predator for them, and if the particular Acropora species in the tank is not at the top of the menu of palatable species then the infection could simmer for a while.

 

[clamm]

Good news, I took frags (fresh cut) of the other acros in the tank and dipped em for 15mins in fw...Yes I know that will kill them. Didn't see anything...appears to only be on the 2 mentioned above.

Does that mean im safe to trade! NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Only way to stop this is responsible trading practices. Everyone needs to be aware of these and the risks.

I am setting up a QT tomorrow and doing the other frags in the chemicals...then waiting and waiting.

 

[smcnally]

Does that mean im safe to trade! NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then why would you do that? Kind of a waste, aint it?

 

[jovreef]

Well I dipped a few of my soft corals in fresh water...nothing came off except a funky looking worm...(long body type...not flatworm type) I also tried the picture method... I'm to shakey to do it myself everything came out blurry. I'll try to get some help this week and update everyone.

Gurumasta, Try the picture method too please... I'd like to know if you see worms with the picture method & not with the dip.

So it is 2 with worms so far and 2 that dipped and does not seem to have them right? what about everyone else that got nates corals...have you dipped yet?!?!?!

 

[Ray]

unlikely but no one really knows.

I wouldnt say unlikely......Darren got them on a ric frag.

Good news, I took frags (fresh cut) of the other acros in the tank and dipped em for 15mins in fw...Yes I know that will kill them. Didn't see anything...appears to only be on the 2 mentioned above.

Does that mean im safe to trade! NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Only way to stop this is responsible trading practices. Everyone needs to be aware of these and the risks.

I am setting up a QT tomorrow and doing the other frags in the chemicals...then waiting and waiting.

Were the frags you cut big or just an inch or so of the tips? I would check them again rather then think they are not on them because they were not on the frags.

You want a little levamisole to treat things? I have been treating all acros with it and now it looks like I will be treating everything

 

[clamm]

i ordered some already... thanks though. the frags were big...sacrified 1/2 the colony...checking them again now will do nothing...giving it 1 mth then will check.

I wouldnt say unlikely......Darren got them on a ric frag.

Were the frags you cut big or just an inch or so of the tips? I would check them again rather then think they are not on them because they were not on the frags.

You want a little levamisole to treat things? I have been treating all acros with it and now it looks like I will be treating everything

 

[ScottM]

FWIW,
I got Acro flatworms from Ray's system before he turned it into everythingreef.
I tried all sorts of methods to rid my home tank of them.
I was successful when I sent a big batch of infested coral (livestock from ray's place when we split) to a 125g QT tank at Bigsmokeshowjoe's, for some unknown reason they all died. Still do not know why or how, but they did.
gotta be something in the water chem. if you ask me.
but for my home tank, in the end, I took down the entire tank and froze my rock in the garage. better to be safe than sorry.
At least now, I can say I am 100% not infected. got rid of my damn manjano's too.

 

[dz6t]

I was successful when I sent a big batch of infested coral (livestock from ray's place when we split) to a 125g QT tank at Bigsmokeshowjoe's, for some unknown reason they all died. Still do not know why or how, but they did.
.

May be an analysis of the tank water and will get us some info. Or, you can package the water up and sell them as "Bigsmokeshowjoe Acro Flat Worm Exit".

 

[One Eye]

When I had them in the qt set up over here they were all fine, then they all just died. I had some in a tank with no live acro, just the branches they had already eaten down to skeleton. I expected those to die, but in the other 2 tanks they had plenty to feed on.
I had lost power for a full day, the main had the backups and was ok but I had no backups on the 3 little qt's I had for the fw's. The tank temp was 62 (I think) I thought this might have killed them. Another reefer who is fighting these things now took a bowl with fw's in it and left the bowl outside about a week ago. He said they didn't like it, but they survived. Maybe he didn't leave them in the cold long enough? Or maybe the cold just doesn't effect them like I thought. Maybe sometimes they just die...like in smokeshows tank.

As far as me getting a ricordea rock with them on it. I got them from someone who was trying the TB/PH method. I would assume that it would be much less likely to have them on non-acropora if their not being blown out into the water column. Not impossible, just less likely.

 

[One Eye]

I know another club member who was one of the eagle eyes pointing out red mites in peoples system. He could see them when others couldn't. He is also very observant of his systems. He just broke his system down. He had a huge infestation of fw's...huge! They were everywhere...except where they might be visible. He didn't have a clue they were there. They were also all over a monster of a green slimer. He didn't notice until he moved some things around in the tank...and there they were. From the size of the infestation, they had been there quite a while, completely invisible to someone who takes a lot of time observing his tank....so maybe with a system as large as smokeshows they are still there, just not visible.

Also, if you look at the pics I took in the other thread, they stay very small for a long time, we were guessing 3 months before they reach 1/4".....And in my experiance, if you find one that is large...by large I mean 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch, then there are hundreds of the little no see-ums. This is just a guess but, 3 months to 1/4"...would it take 6 months to reach 1/2" and 9 months to reach 3/4"....if so, that would easily explain why Nate couldn't see any fw's and now 6 to 9 months later they are visible.